To return to the original question, I recall a discussion right after the election that said (as a previous writer pointed out) that the black community strongly supported Prop 8. The increased black vote for Obama helped Prop 8 as well. In fact--although I don't remember the exact statistics--the increased black vote in proportion to it's Yes on Prop 8 was essentially the difference in the overall result. Ironic, isn't it.
With regard to getting rid of marriage, I would support that. The state can create civil unions, a legal status with certain rights and responsibilities, and let churches deal with marriage however they want to define it. -- Russ Abbott _____________________________________________ Professor, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles o Check out my blog at http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Douglas Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > No, that is not what I was suggesting, Roger. Dissent within the LDS is a > proven fact: witness the FLDS/LDS split. > > What I was trying to say was that if your suggestion that a monetary > incentive be provided to create a schism within the LDS religion, where the > intent is for one faction was to assume a more rational approach to societal > diversification issues like same-sex marriages, the attempt would probably > fail. The reason being that the LDS view of "proper" societal positions for > men, women, and marriage aren't very rational to begin with, and they are > fixed by an extremely rigid and ritualistic dogma. A dogma that succeeds to > a very large extent of creating "members for life". > > I was, however, mildly surprised to see the issue being discussed openly in > the Salt Lake Tribune. A web page, BTW, that I can no longer access. Has > it been taken down, of is there a more innocent explanation? Ten years ago > you would not have seen "bad" LDS news of this type appearing in a Salt Lake > paper. > > --Doug > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Roger Critchlow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Doug -- >> >> I'm not questioning your experience, but you seem to assert that dissent >> in the LDS is impossible. >> >> Yet Google found 37,500 results for a search on "prop 8 lds dissent" when >> I searched, after reading your first reply, to see if I had misundertood >> what I was talking about. >> >> -- rec -- >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Douglas Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >> >>> Hey, Roger. >>> >>> I lived up there near SLC for three years, right in the heart of Mormon >>> country. I actually know quite a bit about their beliefs and practices -- >>> both the good and the bad. >>> >>> For those interested in an excellent in-depth book on the history of the >>> Mormon religion, I recommend "Under The Banner of Heaven, A Story of >>> Violent Faith" by Jon Krakauer. >>> >>> During the three years that I lived in Pocatello, ID, I met a few former >>> Mormons who had been successfully "deprogrammed" . Many of them had >>> interesting, and sometimes dark stories to tell about the true inner social >>> workings of their former "faith". >>> >>> --Doug >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Roger Critchlow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't know, Doug, why don't you read this Salt Lake Tribune story >>>> about dissent within the LDS, and tell me who's making snap decisions based >>>> on doctrine. >>>> >>>> http://www.sltrib.cowasm/lds/ci_10797630<http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_10797630> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- rec -- >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Douglas Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't know, Roger. The LDS indoctrination machine is one of the more >>>>> efficient operations that exists these days. It seems to supply a fairy >>>>> tale that is particularly beguiling to a certain type of personality. >>>>> Once >>>>> that vision of sugar plums and seven levels of heaven is planted, it seems >>>>> nearly impossible to uproot. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure they'd be happy to take your money, though. >>>>> >>>>> --Doug >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Roger Critchlow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think someone should contribute $30,000,000 to foment a schism in >>>>>> the Church of the Latter Day Saints based on their internal conflicts on >>>>>> this issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- rec -- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Orlando Leibovitz < >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Owen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In my opinion the word marriage should not be removed. I believe that >>>>>>> civil marriage should be available to all consenting adults. Various >>>>>>> religions can then do as they please. If, in fact, this is a civil >>>>>>> rights >>>>>>> (constitutional) issue then religions that violate civil liberties >>>>>>> should, >>>>>>> at the least, not have 501c3 status. I try to understand but am not >>>>>>> sympathetic to religious angst about this as I would not be if you >>>>>>> substituted black, jew, Christian, etc for the word gay. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James, I am grateful to the Quakers for many of the positions they >>>>>>> have taken. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Orlando >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James Steiner wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Consider also the relligions that have.supported and do sanctify >>>>>>> same-sex marriages, without regard for, indeed in spite of, the legal >>>>>>> status of such unions, e.g. the Meetings of Friends (Quakers). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/9/08, Owen Densmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 9, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Orlando Leibovitz wrote: >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In my opinion this is not a marriage issue, it is a civil rights >>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And there you have the problem in a nutshell. "Gay marriage" >>>>>>> confounds the two. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One the one hand, the word "marriage" creates considerable angst on >>>>>>> gay issues within the various religions. The recent Anglican/Episcopal >>>>>>> split was largely over gay marriage and gay bishops. This is a >>>>>>> complex issue where religions have to confront difficult problems >>>>>>> within themselves. And definitely a church/state boundary. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other hand, gay civil rights are clear: they are being violated >>>>>>> and the strictly civil rights have to be granted immediately. "Civil >>>>>>> union", however, may be a distasteful term to the gay community. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Most of silicon valley had to deal with this within their corporate >>>>>>> laws. They all grant gay civil rights by now. They simply had to >>>>>>> change the concept of "partner" and insurance, spousal rights and so >>>>>>> on were easily solved. I don't believe religions are concerned about >>>>>>> this solution. As far as I know, the government does not object, and >>>>>>> even allows for joint tax filing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder if the word "marriage" were taken out of the equation, would >>>>>>> it at least help obtain civil rights for gay couples? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- Owen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ============================================================ >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>>>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ============================================================ >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>>>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Orlando Leibovitz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.orlandoleibovitz.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Studio Telephone: 505-820-6183 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ============================================================ >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>>>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
