Nick, Since you are looking for emergence, you don't expect to get a complete explanation of the strength of a triangle in terms of the strength of its parts. Part of the strength of the triangle has to do with how the parts are structured with respect to each other. I suspect that no matter how an explanation of that structure produces strength, what you really care about is that the structure is part of the explanation. (This is similar to how a flock "emerges" from its boid elements as a result of how the individual boids relate to each other.)
With respect to supervenience, that holds only because the collection of elements is static. If it were dyanmic and could change with time, there wouldn't be supervenience. At any moment various properties of FRIAM supervene over its members. But the set of members changes even though FRIAM as an entity persists. Supervience doesn't hold over time. -- Russ Abbott _____________________________________________ Professor, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles o Check out my blog at http://bluecatblog.wordpress.com/ On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Stephen Guerin <[email protected]>wrote: > >> In what field, I wonder, do they discuss the greater strength of some >> configurations of members vis -a vis others. SOMEBODY offered me the answer >> to that question, but I have forgotten what the answer was. Some sort of >> mechanics .... elementary? Can anybody remember or provide the information >> again? Why are triangles strong? >> > > I wasn't in the conversation that FRIAM, but I suspect someone mentioned > the study of Statics and Dynamics in Mechanics. Or where the statics bit is > sometimes called solid mechanics. Here's an MIT opencourseware: > > http://mit.sustech.edu/OcwWeb/Civil-and-Environmental-Engineering/1-050Fall-2004/CourseHome/index.htm > Course description: 1.050 is a sophomore-level engineering mechanics > course, commonly labelled "Statics and Strength of Materials" or "Solid > Mechanics I." This course introduces students to the fundamental principles > and methods of structural mechanics. Topics covered include: static > equilibrium, force resultants, support conditions, analysis of determinate > planar structures (beams, trusses, frames), stresses and strains in > structural elements, states of stress (shear, bending, torsion), statically > indeterminate systems, displacements and deformations, introduction to > matrix methods, elastic stability, and approximate methods. Design exercises > are used to encourage creative student initiative and systems thinking. > > --- -. . ..-. .. ... .... - .-- --- ..-. .. ... .... > [email protected] > (m) 505.577.5828 (o) 505.995.0206 > redfish.com _ sfcomplex.org _ simtable.com _ lava3d.com > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 7, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > John >> >> Forgive what is going to seem like an odd response. I keep wanting >> people to give me an account in terms of FORCES. So, it is not for me, who >> is seeking advice on an explanation, to dictate what SORT of an explanation >> is satisfactory. However, explanations like the the one you kindly offered >> seem to my warped mind to be almost circular: a triangle is strong because >> it has no choice but to be strong. >> >> The reason I am pondering this is because, remember, of its connection to >> emergence. What is the relationship between teh strength of a triangle and >> the strength of its parts. Well, on our example, a triangle made out of >> weak wood and weak bolts is a weak triangle. Thus, the strength of a >> triangle supervenes upon the strength of its components. >> >> But surely we cannot reduce the strength of a triangle to the strength of >> its parts because the strength of a triangle depends on the ARRANGEMENT of >> those parts. And arrangement is not a property of any of the parts. >> >> [sigh] >> >> Nick >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> Clark University ([email protected]) >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: John Sadd >> To: [email protected];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity >> Coffee Group >> Sent: 6/7/2009 5:37:06 AM >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] quick question >> >> I would think they would use the language of mathematics, and I'm not sure >> how it would contribute to an understanding of emergence. Others whose >> knowledge of geometry is fresher than mine could explain it better, but >> basically, once the length of the sides of a triangle is fixed, by driving a >> nail or a bolt through the corners, for instance, then there is only one set >> of internal angles that are possible for those lengths, so the shape of the >> triangle can't be changed without breaking the connections at the corners. >> For a quadrilateral, though, the size of pairs of internal angles can be >> changed so that as one angle grows larger, the adjacent one grows smaller, >> preserving the total of 360 degrees; therefore a quadrilateral can be >> smushed (technical term) as long as the connections at the corners can be >> made to flex, without having to change the lengths of the sides. >> >> js >> >> On Jun 6, 2009, at 11:57 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> >> >>> On a recent friday, as part of my worrying about emergence, I was trying >>> to find out what sort of language wise people use when they explain the >>> greater resistance of triangles to compression. it seemed to me that that >>> example provided all the complexity we needed for a thorough-going >>> discussion of emergence. So if I could learn how wise people talked about >>> it, perhaps I could learn how to talk about emergence in general. >>> >>> In what field, I wonder, do they discuss the greater strength of some >>> configurations of members vis -a vis others. SOMEBODY offered me the answer >>> to that question, but I have forgotten what the answer was. Some sort of >>> mechanics .... elementary? Can anybody remember or provide the information >>> again? Why are triangles strong? >>> >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >>> Clark University ([email protected]) >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
