I respectfully but firmly disagree. To see emergence, one may have to observe
the phenomenon from a particular angle, emergence itself is out there.
Properties of aggregates often depend on the arrangement or order of
arrangement of their parts.
N
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([email protected])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Cordingley
To: [email protected];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: 9/6/2009 5:57:14 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] emergence
After observing all the tos and fros, and listening to many in person
discussions on emergence and complexity, I've decided (see No. 4), Emergence
is in the eye of the beholder. This will continue until someone declares a
definition that can be widely adopted by workers in the field. Look at the
Reynolds Number that is a dimensionless but useful engineering tool to
determine the type of fluid flow, whether it's laminar or turbulent and helps
determine how to calculate pipeline pressure drops and such. Or look at
Fractal Dimension, that is a statistical quantity, and I believe is another
dimensionless quantity, in fact.
Is is possible that there is a measure of Complexity that can be used in the
same sort of way? As this measure of Complexity increases Emergence happens
(like turbulence) above a certain value? And it is so because we say so.
Robert C.
Russ Abbott wrote:
<snipped>
4. Is emergence an objective feature of the world, or is it merely in the eye
of the beholder? ...
<snipped>
-- Russ
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]>
wrote:
"seems" would seem to be the operative word. He is the editor of the book and
he has to represent the range of opinion and SOME people think its mysterious.
but i have to go buy fish.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([email protected])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
----- Original Message -----
From: Russ Abbott
To: [email protected];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group
Sent: 9/6/2009 11:57:48 AM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] emergence
If you make properties rather than entities emergent, what do you say about
entities? What are they? Where do they come from? Put another way, what is a
property a property of?
I think you will find that Bedau and Humphreys find emergence mysterious. This
is the second sentence from the Introduction. "The topic of emergence is
fascinating and controversial in part because emergence seems to be widespread
and yet the very idea of emergence seems opaque, and perhaps even incoherent."
The rest of the Introduction expands on the mystery of emergence.
-- Russ
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]>
wrote:
Try this: a property of an entity is emergent when it depends on the
arrangment or the order of presentation of the parts of the entity. (It's
properties that are emergent, not entities ... some properties of a pile of
sand are emergent, some aggregate.) Here, I believe, I am channeling Wimsatt.
The beauty of reading a collection such as Bedau and The Other Guy is that you
experience the whip-lash of moving from point of view to point of view. Good
exercise for the neck.
By the way, Russ (was it?) was a ...leetle... unfair to Bedau. I dont think
Bedau thinks it's a mystery; i think he thinks others have thought it a
mystery. But it's been a few months since I read it.
Implementation: Consider the expression, "there is more than one way to skin a
cat". Equivalent to: "there are several programs you can use to implement a
cat skinning."
Consciousness: the big source of confusion in emergence discussions is the
attempt to attach emergence to such perennial mysteries as consciousness.
(Actually, I dont think consciousness is a mystery, but let that go.) The
strength of a triangle is an emergent property of the arrangment of its legs
and their attachments. There are lots of ways bang together boards and still
have a weak construction, which I learned when I put together a grape arbor
with no diagonal members. Worked fine until the grapes grew on it. Emergent
properties are everywhere in the simplest of constructions. We dont need to
talk about soul, or consciouness, or spirit to have a useful conversation about
emergence.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([email protected])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
----- Original Message -----
From: Victoria Hughes
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: 9/6/2009 10:32:59 AM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] emergence
Consciousness / self-awareness?
Is this thus acceptable as an emergent phenomenon?
If so, how does this permit, or not, the definition of 'the self' as a unique
identity?
Emergence is what happens when components of the "emergent entity" act in such
a way as to bring about the existence and persistence of that entity.
When "boids" follow their local flying rules, they create (implement) a flock.
It's not mysterious. We know how it works.
That's all emergence is: coordinated or consistent actions among a number of
elements that result in the formation and persistence of some aggregate entity
or phenomenon.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
