<snipped>
4. Is emergence an objective feature of the world, or is it merely in
the eye of the beholder? ...
<snipped>
-- Russ
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Nicholas Thompson
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
"seems" would seem to be the operative word. He is the editor of
the book and he has to represent the range of opinion and SOME
people think its mysterious.
but i have to go buy fish.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Russ Abbott <mailto:[email protected]>
*To: *[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>;The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* 9/6/2009 11:57:48 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] emergence
If you make properties rather than entities emergent, what do
you say about entities? What are they? Where do they come
from? Put another way, what is a property a property of?
I think you will find that Bedau and Humphreys find emergence
mysterious. This is the second sentence from the Introduction
<http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/chapters/026202621Xintro1.pdf>.
"The topic of emergence is fascinating and controversial in
part because emergence seems to be widespread and yet the very
idea of emergence seems opaque, and perhaps even incoherent."
The rest of the Introduction expands on the mystery of emergence.
-- Russ
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Try this: a property of an entity is emergent when it
depends on the arrangment or the order of presentation of
the parts of the entity. (It's /properties/ that are
emergent, not /entities/ ... some properties of a pile of
sand are emergent, some aggregate.) Here, I believe, I am
channeling Wimsatt.
The beauty of reading a collection such as Bedau and The
Other Guy is that you experience the whip-lash of moving
from point of view to point of view. Good exercise for
the neck.
By the way, Russ (was it?) was a ...leetle... unfair to
Bedau. I dont think Bedau thinks it's a mystery; i think
he thinks others have thought it a mystery. But it's
been a few months since I read it.
Implementation: Consider the expression, "there is more
than one way to skin a cat". Equivalent to: "there are
several programs you can use to implement a cat skinning."
Consciousness: the big source of confusion in emergence
discussions is the attempt to attach emergence to such
perennial mysteries as consciousness. (Actually, I dont
think consciousness is a mystery, but let that go.) The
strength of a triangle is an emergent property of the
arrangment of its legs and their attachments. There are
lots of ways bang together boards and still have a weak
construction, which I learned when I put together a grape
arbor with no diagonal members. Worked fine until the
grapes grew on it. Emergent properties are everywhere in
the simplest of constructions. We dont need to talk about
soul, or consciouness, or spirit to have a useful
conversation about emergence.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>)
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Victoria Hughes <mailto:[email protected]>
*To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* 9/6/2009 10:32:59 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] emergence
Consciousness / self-awareness?
Is this thus acceptable as an emergent phenomenon?
If so, how does this permit, or not, the definition of
'the self' as a unique identity?
Emergence is what happens when components of the
"emergent entity" act in such a way as to bring about
the existence and persistence of that entity.
When "boids" follow their local flying rules, they
create (implement) a flock. It's not mysterious. We
know how it works.
That's all emergence is: coordinated or consistent
actions among a number of elements that result in the
formation and persistence of some aggregate entity or
phenomenon.
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
