David Wolpert has actually proposed such a measure<http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1210562>. But I don't think it has much if anything to do with emergence.
-- Russ On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Robert Cordingley <[email protected]> wrote: > After observing all the tos and fros, and listening to many in person > discussions on emergence and complexity, I've decided (see No. 4), > Emergence is in the eye of the beholder. This will continue until someone > declares a definition that can be widely adopted by workers in the field. > Look at the Reynolds Number > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number>that is a dimensionless but > useful engineering tool to determine the type of > fluid flow, whether it's laminar or turbulent and helps determine how to > calculate pipeline pressure drops and such. Or look at Fractal > Dimension<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_dimension>, > that is a statistical quantity, and I believe is another dimensionless > quantity, in fact. > > Is is possible that there is a measure of Complexity that can be used in > the same sort of way? As this measure of Complexity increases Emergence > happens (like turbulence) above a certain value? And it is so because we > say so. > > Robert C. > > Russ Abbott wrote: > > <snipped> > 4. Is emergence an objective feature of the world, or is it merely in the > eye of the beholder? ... > > <snipped> > > -- Russ > > > On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Nicholas Thompson < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> "seems" would seem to be the operative word. He is the editor of the >> book and he has to represent the range of opinion and SOME people think its >> mysterious. >> >> but i have to go buy fish. >> >> Nick >> >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> Clark University ([email protected]) >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Russ Abbott <[email protected]> >> *To: *[email protected];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity >> Coffee Group <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* 9/6/2009 11:57:48 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] emergence >> >> If you make properties rather than entities emergent, what do you say >> about entities? What are they? Where do they come from? Put another way, >> what is a property a property of? >> >> I think you will find that Bedau and Humphreys find emergence mysterious. >> This is the second sentence from the >> Introduction<http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/chapters/026202621Xintro1.pdf>. >> "The topic of emergence is fascinating and controversial in part because >> emergence seems to be widespread and yet the very idea of emergence seems >> opaque, and perhaps even incoherent." The rest of the Introduction expands >> on the mystery of emergence. >> >> -- Russ >> >> On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Try this: a property of an entity is emergent when it depends on the >>> arrangment or the order of presentation of the parts of the entity. (It's >>> *properties* that are emergent, not *entities* ... some properties of a >>> pile of sand are emergent, some aggregate.) Here, I believe, I am >>> channeling Wimsatt. >>> >>> The beauty of reading a collection such as Bedau and The Other Guy is >>> that you experience the whip-lash of moving from point of view to point of >>> view. Good exercise for the neck. >>> >>> By the way, Russ (was it?) was a ...leetle... unfair to Bedau. I dont >>> think Bedau thinks it's a mystery; i think he thinks others have thought it >>> a mystery. But it's been a few months since I read it. >>> >>> Implementation: Consider the expression, "there is more than one way to >>> skin a cat". Equivalent to: "there are several programs you can use to >>> implement a cat skinning." >>> >>> Consciousness: the big source of confusion in emergence discussions is >>> the attempt to attach emergence to such perennial mysteries as >>> consciousness. (Actually, I dont think consciousness is a mystery, but let >>> that go.) The strength of a triangle is an emergent property of the >>> arrangment of its legs and their attachments. There are lots of ways bang >>> together boards and still have a weak construction, which I learned when I >>> put together a grape arbor with no diagonal members. Worked fine until the >>> grapes grew on it. Emergent properties are everywhere in the simplest of >>> constructions. We dont need to talk about soul, or consciouness, or spirit >>> to have a useful conversation about emergence. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >>> Clark University ([email protected]) >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Victoria Hughes <[email protected]> >>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group<[email protected]> >>> *Sent:* 9/6/2009 10:32:59 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] emergence >>> >>> Consciousness / self-awareness? >>> Is this thus acceptable as an emergent phenomenon? >>> If so, how does this permit, or not, the definition of 'the self' as a >>> unique identity? >>> >>> >>> Emergence is what happens when components of the "emergent entity" act >>> in such a way as to bring about the existence and persistence of that >>> entity. >>> >>> When "boids" follow their local flying rules, they create (implement) a >>> flock. It's not mysterious. We know how it works. >>> >>> That's all emergence is: coordinated or consistent actions among a number >>> of elements that result in the formation and persistence of some aggregate >>> entity or phenomenon. >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> >> > ------------------------------ > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
