Hi Steve: I guess my point is that one can prettify religious traditions with gentle filtering of their full legacy, but the context of their cultures can't be scrubbed by merely proposing that you intuit what a "true believer" would accept and reject from their texts.
--- Pat On Monday, January 20, 2014, Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > Patrick - > > Hola Todos: > > With no disparagement intended to Jochen, I will point out that the > sacred texts of Judeo-Christianity are riddled with commandments of > intolerance as well as love. God is on the record as demanding murder and > worse for trivial acts or for simply living in the wrong valley. > > I am possibly the *least* religious person on this list (despite all my > mad psuedospiritual ravings) and I agree with you that there are hugely > *offensive* (by today's standards) statements made in the name of or on > behalf of the (Old Testament/Quranic/Talmudic/???) judgemental, punishing, > paternalistic god. But that is just a reflection of how cultures of > those times and places worked. > > I suppose your point is made, however... that does not provide a promising > basis for a "kinder, gentler" way... but then that is what I suppose Christ > was interested into the mix for, throw in some more peace, love and > forgiveness! > > So I will also support Jochen's statement that "true Christians" (WeverTF > those are, or if I ever met one) are "really good people"... insomuch as > they actually *follow* the new testament message and allow it to supercede > the old testament. > > *I* suspect that there could be some work to do some formal "deprecation" > of the worst of the Old Testament? Lose the Smiting and Spiting? And yet > all (?) contemporary cultures are full of "punishing" behaviour. MADD > mothers and Greenpeace and PETA being examples of near militaristic forms > of "kindness". > > Maybe there *is* no social "programme" without a stick *and* a carrot? > > Continuar Amigos y Amigas, > - Steve > > > > > > ---- Pat > > On Monday, January 20, 2014, Jochen Fromm <[email protected]> wrote: > > > It is not only a metaphor. It goes deeper, and it touches the core of our > civilization and what it means to be human. Religious groups are adaptive > units subject to evolution. They are based on replicating entities shaped > by group selection. > > First I want to say that true Christians are wonderful people, they are a > blessing for everybody. Those who really read the bible every day and > practice it, not the ones who only pretend to be it. Jesus must have been a > wonderful person, too, someone who loved everyone, men or women, old or > young, rich or poor. And when he died this horrible death at the cross his > followers must have thought this can't be true, such a wonderful person > doesn't deserved this. And some of his followers had the idea to write his > story down. > > When human beings are really governed by love, you indeed get a society > worth living in. "thou shalt not" and "eye for an eye; tooth for a tooth" > is the Old Testament, the foundation of the Jewish religion. The main > commandment of the New Testament is love (Matthew 22, 36-40): "Love the > Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your > mind. And [..] love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets > hang on these two commandments." > > Christians live in bubble of politeness, but rich people, too. See e.g. > http://www.vice.com/read/filthy-lucre "If you have money, you can pay to > live in a bubble of politesse. Excellent wine choice, sir. Here's your gift > bag, madam. Often, you don't have to pay for it [..] Soon, you think this > treatment is earned." Rich people pay much money to live in this bubble of > politesse and politeness. Living in such a bubble can indeed make you > believe you are worth it, and those with money usually think they deserve > it. Although they themselves behave quite contrary: arrogance is not > uncommon among the rich. > > Christians have discovered much earlier a way to get along with each other > without money, and how to make this miserable place a bit less miserable. > Religions are not ancient nonense, they contain ancient wisdom how to make > a life worth living. They consist of rules and instructions which are > thousands of years old and still work. > > You know, the holy book which is read every saturday (in the Jewish > religion) or sunday (in the Christian one) is in fact nothing else but a > bundle of instructions how to create a group of people which get along with > each other. The preacher who preaches a sermon is like someone who > translate the genes of the holy script. He reads the genetic information > (the DNA) and creates a message (the RNA) so that the believers can > translate the information into behavior. The behavior of the church members > is the protein which is generated. Church service is the expression of > cultural genes, and religious groups are adaptive units subject to > evolution and group selection. > > There you have it, the mystery of religion. From a sociological > perspective it is quite obvious. All the basic religious terms are related > to group terms: > > god: group > sin: breaking the rules of the group > blessing/curse: wish to be included in/excluded from the group > heaven/hell: being loved/hated by the group > prophet: founder of the group > priest: maintainer of the group > holy (profane): something which belongs to the group (or not) > holy book: history and blueprint of the group > prayer: conversation of individual and group > word of god, commandment: laws of the group > baptism: gain a new existence as a member of a group > > This doesn't mean that we all have to eat only "kosher" things now, though > ;-) > > See also > * Emile Durkheim, The Elementary Forms of Religious Life, 1912 > > -- The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. 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