Pat -
I agree... "true believer" too often connotes "radical fundamentalist"
which I'm pretty sure turns out poorly for everyone (usually including
the radical themselves).
- Steve
Hi Steve:
I guess my point is that one can prettify religious traditions with
gentle filtering of their full legacy, but the context of their
cultures can't be scrubbed by merely proposing that you intuit what a
"true believer" would accept and reject from their texts.
--- Pat
On Monday, January 20, 2014, Steve Smith <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Patrick -
Hola Todos:
With no disparagement intended to Jochen, I will point out that
the sacred texts of Judeo-Christianity are riddled with
commandments of intolerance as well as love. God is on the
record as demanding murder and worse for trivial acts or for
simply living in the wrong valley.
I am possibly the *least* religious person on this list (despite
all my mad psuedospiritual ravings) and I agree with you that
there are hugely *offensive* (by today's standards) statements
made in the name of or on behalf of the (Old
Testament/Quranic/Talmudic/???) judgemental, punishing,
paternalistic god. But that is just a reflection of how
cultures of those times and places worked.
I suppose your point is made, however... that does not provide a
promising basis for a "kinder, gentler" way... but then that is
what I suppose Christ was interested into the mix for, throw in
some more peace, love and forgiveness!
So I will also support Jochen's statement that "true Christians"
(WeverTF those are, or if I ever met one) are "really good
people"... insomuch as they actually *follow* the new testament
message and allow it to supercede the old testament.
*I* suspect that there could be some work to do some formal
"deprecation" of the worst of the Old Testament? Lose the Smiting
and Spiting? And yet all (?) contemporary cultures are full of
"punishing" behaviour. MADD mothers and Greenpeace and PETA being
examples of near militaristic forms of "kindness".
Maybe there *is* no social "programme" without a stick *and* a carrot?
Continuar Amigos y Amigas,
- Steve
---- Pat
On Monday, January 20, 2014, Jochen Fromm <[email protected]> wrote:
It is not only a metaphor. It goes deeper, and it touches the
core of our civilization and what it means to be human.
Religious groups are adaptive units subject to evolution.
They are based on replicating entities shaped by group selection.
First I want to say that true Christians are wonderful
people, they are a blessing for everybody. Those who really
read the bible every day and practice it, not the ones who
only pretend to be it. Jesus must have been a wonderful
person, too, someone who loved everyone, men or women, old or
young, rich or poor. And when he died this horrible death at
the cross his followers must have thought this can't be true,
such a wonderful person doesn't deserved this. And some of
his followers had the idea to write his story down.
When human beings are really governed by love, you indeed get
a society worth living in. "thou shalt not" and "eye for an
eye; tooth for a tooth" is the Old Testament, the foundation
of the Jewish religion. The main commandment of the New
Testament is love (Matthew 22, 36-40): "Love the Lord your
God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all
your mind. And [..] love your neighbor as yourself. All the
Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Christians live in bubble of politeness, but rich people,
too. See e.g. http://www.vice.com/read/filthy-lucre "If you
have money, you can pay to live in a bubble of politesse.
Excellent wine choice, sir. Here's your gift bag, madam.
Often, you don't have to pay for it [..] Soon, you think this
treatment is earned." Rich people pay much money to live in
this bubble of politesse and politeness. Living in such a
bubble can indeed make you believe you are worth it, and
those with money usually think they deserve it. Although they
themselves behave quite contrary: arrogance is not uncommon
among the rich.
Christians have discovered much earlier a way to get along
with each other without money, and how to make this miserable
place a bit less miserable. Religions are not ancient
nonense, they contain ancient wisdom how to make a life worth
living. They consist of rules and instructions which are
thousands of years old and still work.
You know, the holy book which is read every saturday (in the
Jewish religion) or sunday (in the Christian one) is in fact
nothing else but a bundle of instructions how to create a
group of people which get along with each other. The preacher
who preaches a sermon is like someone who translate the genes
of the holy script. He reads the genetic information (the
DNA) and creates a message (the RNA) so that the believers
can translate the information into behavior. The behavior of
the church members is the protein which is generated. Church
service is the expression of cultural genes, and religious
groups are adaptive units subject to evolution and group
selection.
There you have it, the mystery of religion. From a
sociological perspective it is quite obvious. All the basic
religious terms are related to group terms:
god: group
sin: breaking the rules of the group
blessing/curse: wish to be included in/excluded from the group
heaven/hell: being loved/hated by the group
prophet: founder of the group
priest: maintainer of the group
holy (profane): something which belongs to the group (or not)
holy book: history and blueprint of the group
prayer: conversation of individual and group
word of god, commandment: laws of the group
baptism: gain a new existence as a member of a group
This doesn't mean that we all have to eat only "kosher"
things now, though ;-)
See also
* Emile Durkheim, The Elementary Forms of Religious Life, 1912
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