your point about "point mutations" and non-connected spaces (not connected by point mutations anyway) is well taken and is what I think your last message that I was calling "latent" (expression) is about.

From my daughter's sage anecdotal claims about Cancer, it seems that something like 7 independent cellular reproduction mechanisms have to fail or be jiggered for cancer to emerge in healthy cells. I don't know if that literally means 7 independent mutations must occur simultaneously or if more likely 7 have to "accumulate", which seems more likely, and follows (I think) your example. In the light of this discussion, I should probably ask her for a more thorough description of what she meant by all of that.

In the socio/political/religious/economic realm it seems that multiple simultaneous mutations are more obvious to observe. I think we see humans mis-copy their memetic code (misinterpret their holy scriptures, or their parents or masters teachings, etc.) very often and sometimes in several dimensions at once. Perhaps the "robustness" of the underlying unit (a human being) allows for such wild mutations (highly antisocial behaviour by most measures) in a single copy, is what allows for what seems like some fairly fast memetic evolution at the social level?

i'm probably reaching here, but in this petri dish that is the USA with Trump or the first world with Trump, et al, or even the globally connected (bits, atoms, virus particles, memes, oh my!) first, second and third world there is likely to be some relatively unprecedented mutations recognized and even selected for. Some could say that Donald Trump represents a half-dozen (or more) mutations in the socio/economic/political code and yet HE WAS SELECTED FOR and is almost surely malignant and seems to be metastasizing (other populist whitelash fascist movements around the first world). The question in this metaphor might be whether the body (humankind) has the ability to fight back against this? It fits my Candide/Pollyanna idea that times such as these are good times to focus significant resources on simply "tending your own garden". The world will have a better chance of fighting off this malignancy if it maintains it's overall health (social, economic, spiritual) otherwise. We can't let this malignancy weaken our immune system any more than it already has.


 - Steve

On 8/12/17 10:14 AM, ┣glen┫ wrote:
Exactly.  And even though we're conflating the model of evolution with the real thing, I 
find it difficult to believe the "space" operated on by evolution is entirely 
convex or even connected.  So, (point) mutation alone may *never* reach some regions, 
regardless of infinite individuals, infinite generations, or infinite space and time.

On 08/12/2017 09:07 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
"Can we truly say that the crossover had nothing to do with the "innovation" ... that it only 
preserved the innovation and the mutation caused it?  A neutral mutation can't be considered an 
"innovation", right?"

A function related by rotation might be a candidate for crossover.

f(x,y,z,...) -> good
f(y,z,x,...) -> good
f(z,x,y,...) -> good
f(x,z,y,...) -> bad

Going through the combinations just by using mutation takes forever.  But 
splicing at different points would help.   One could imagine for motor 
functions these symmetry or shift detectors could be important.   (Here it is 
just 1 dimensional.)

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