I also found the branch to normativity odd. Took listening to several rounds of this joust to find quite the right metaphor to express why.
If I suddenly became Chaitin, and cared more than anything else about which numbers were random and which weren’t, I would be saddled with a need for criteria by which to assign such attributions. That would blossom into a whole system to study kinds of order and what-else there might be where they are absent, and there goes that lifetime. If I wonder whether a series of thought events is ordered, and whether the way it is ordered would also be shared by some other set of thought events so that they could be understood as some kind of family, I would then need to pursue a theory of what kinds of order thought-events can have. Since I am NOT a logician, and look in through the window as the elves work, I can only say that that is what the work looks like to me. The question whether conditions of order can be worked out seems to me much wider than an effort to develop true positions, and also not dependent on values of rightness. If someone asserted to me that a capacity for ordered thought, which one might recognize and be able to use deliberatively even if it were not one’s first impulse, I could not help but hear such an assertion in context of https://twitter.com/i/status/1346919171595137025 <https://twitter.com/i/status/1346919171595137025> Eric > On Jan 14, 2021, at 2:14 PM, <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> wrote: > > No, I still disagree. IFF thinking holistically is the only way to think > rightly, THEN thinking holistically is the only logical way to think. > > But we are about to be bickering over definitions, rather than clarifying > meanings. So long as you know that there is normative dimension in how I > understand “logic”, and I know that for you, there isn’t, that in your usage > there is truth-seeking argument that is not logical, then we probably will > bore other people if we go on arguing. > > But I love you like a brother, > > Nick > > Nicholas Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > Clark University > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,WcEXDxbkWbvZmr0Yic6uGJe6QUiSdLk4Us2IkkSR-5mVa5oiq1hItZ1MqZkJ2uT_T6R-q3eglXi-j8uQEd4KewG_NOwxTZyw2fKbUNc-KcaTFt4,&typo=1> > > > From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On > Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 12:55 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] it's world logic day! > > No, Nick. Thinking logically is just not thinking holistically, it misses the > whole enchilada, and one of the reasons we're doomed--clumsy, but the best I > have time to come up with now. > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 10:24 AM <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Merle, >> >> I think the objection you have to logic flows from the misunderstanding of >> what logic is. If you define logic is thinking that leads to truth, then >> any thinking that leads to truth is logical, and the project of Logic >> Studies is the project of finding out what sorts of thinking lead that way. >> So, I would re-interpret your objection to be that logic, as we know it, is >> so constrained as to be dangerous and misleading. I don’t want us to give >> up on truth-seeking – as the pragmatists understood truth. [Glen, I >> stipulate your objections.] >> >> Nick >> >> Nicholas Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology >> Clark University >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,4vZtXdTeJZ543lRfT-6ZdBDfuQvz7NlRr6l4qjkMMenpAJKELbuSaNxl5vGwj7oS4L3tMM-HeidEa39BG0ppLaHI4LwPH9YYIFDtrPaU&typo=1> >> >> >> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 11:00 AM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] it's world logic day! >> >> I find this celebration very disturbing and even dangerous at a time when >> some are beginning to realize that logic alone is bereft of the complexity >> of all the ways of being in a more-than-human world. >> >> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 9:32 AM <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> Thanks, Glen, >>> >>> >>> >>> It’s nice to know that logic is being celebrated. Still – surprise!—I have >>> a correction. >>> >>> >>> >>> Logic ... [is] the principles of [right] reasoning, >>> >>> >>> >>> Funny how, this article, a celebration of logic, buggers the definition of >>> logic, leaving out it’s ethical dimension. Well, unless one believes that >>> specious or fallacious logic is “logical”, logic is “good” thought, i.e. >>> thought that leads probably to the truth. >>> >>> >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Nicholas Thompson >>> >>> Emeritus Professor of EthologTy and Psychology >>> >>> Clark University >>> >>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,aeSvMKOFCoPIAr7StSgBvUS8UFrxexuhsNtNVvEbRbqTBHmnR-vj8gxkVgkCxsHrJqKRxFJPzB0c8JHSkAlG5s9Mmmq4XzyEXEFpNvVjCbWoNvo,&typo=1> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? >>> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 9:48 AM >>> To: FriAM <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>> Subject: [FRIAM] it's world logic day! >>> >>> >>> >>> https://en.unesco.org/commemorations/worldlogicday >>> <https://en.unesco.org/commemorations/worldlogicday> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > The ability to think is one of the most defining features of humankind. >>> > In different cultures, the definition of humanity is associated with >>> > concepts such as consciousness, knowledge and reason. According to the >>> > classic western tradition, human beings are defined as “rational” or >>> > “logical animals”. Logic, as the investigation on the principles of >>> > reasoning, has been studied by many civilizations throughout history and, >>> > since its earliest formulations, logic has played an important role in >>> > the development of philosophy and the sciences. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Despite its undeniable relevance to the development of knowledge, >>> > sciences and technologies, there is little public awareness on the >>> > importance of logic. The proclamation of World Logic Day by UNESCO, in >>> > association with the International Council for Philosophy and Human >>> > Sciences (CIPSH), intends to bring the intellectual history, conceptual >>> > significance and practical implications of logic to the attention of >>> > interdisciplinary science communities and the broader public. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > A dynamic and global annual celebration of World Logic Day aims at >>> > fostering international cooperation, promoting the development of logic, >>> > in both research and teaching, supporting the activities of associations, >>> > universities and other institutions involved with logic, and enhancing >>> > public understanding of logic and its implications for science, >>> > technology and innovation. Furthermore, the celebration of World Logic >>> > Day can also contribute to the promotion of a culture of peace, dialogue >>> > and mutual understanding, based on the advancement of education and >>> > science. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ >>> >>> >>> >>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>> >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> >>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,Ykr-rYZpwaqUSBdqkVLO0e7xOBEd9s97TfcsPsh_pn8a_7DDfZitobD8At-a3Qn2Om0YSxJ4dQ7dXMXgujHMaC58iHNWLN2_n8DOciXxwlbX_OP_k3Wg9OI,&typo=1> >>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,e83L28BhJHpT1nzijN4fGa8pxRGpDNdh4lLDyJYpbJKzuTCvsgCXrWG6tgICj3lIhilo4HY2Fugyz8Eob3eO4sgK9cN914fxKa5y0sEjkLJQ1aM,&typo=1> >>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,adxTeSCuseB8EDHEjTDSrDSIqXhHFmL7CYP2tDi64MG8BudZESSjVi9TbSMYANgzlfrQMo7bFc7fWPEzFl-I5vEf4l3K1eyeZrY-BkMRnvWu&typo=1> >>> - 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