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And what is the feeler you are using when you feel them and what exactly is that feeler feeling? I assume your answer will be that you are using your feeling feeler and what the feeling feeler is feeling is feelings. (};-)] N PS Glen (at least) is going to dope-slap us for having in public the same stupid argument again. But I do so enjoy it. Nick Thompson <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:41 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms Emotions are what I feel. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 12:31 PM <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: I might agree with Burkerman here, if we understand emotions/motives as assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it. Thanks, all. n Nick Thompson [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:13 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms Thanks so much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy, multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b) whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result. That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat to another human. In any case, it's on the wishlist: https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011 [⛧] Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings). On 2/6/21 5:15 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: > About to be published. > > From a review > <https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved> > by Oliver Burkeman: > > Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology patients – including > children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable of sadness and joy > – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately arises not in the > cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more primitive > brainstem, where basic emotions begin. > > Russ: In other words, consciousness exists far down the tree of life. > > Burkeman: To the best of my understanding, the gist [of the book] is > that feelings are a uniquely effective and efficient way for humans to > monitor their countless changing biological needs, in extremely unpredictable > environments, to set priorities for action and make the best choices so as to > remain within various bounds – of hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, > social isolation, etc – outside of which we can’t survive for long. Doing all > that without feelings, and doing it as rapidly as survival requires, would > take so many computational resources that it would lead to a “combinatorial > explosion”, demanding levels of energy a human could never muster. > > Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon > <https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/ > 0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick > Lane, you know he is worth listening to.) > > "At last the emperor has found some clothes! For decades, consciousness has > been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more than an illusion that can't > really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling new approach to the > problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding meaning in older ideas > going back to Freud. This is an exciting book." > ― Nick Lane, author of /The Vital Question/ -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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