Actually I like this question more than Mark Solms' book. Who is the feeler
that feels? I think we can imagine the feeler as a kind of jury in the society
of mind which judges the situation on behalf of the genes (for every subjective
sport like ice skating or dancing there is such a jury).I am not convinced Mark
Solms has solved an important riddle. It is true that we feel the way we do
because our genes have created emotions, an adaptive ancient control mechanism
for us. In the moments when we are conscious of ourselves we are like a
self-driving car that wakes up.But I wouldn't say that emotions alone solve the
riddle of consciousness. It is rather the path dependence of emotions which
leads to subjective experience, as we have discussed many times before. A
subjective experience which we can start to understand in cinemas (which is one
reason why we like them).The problem is the moment I become conscious of myself
is also the moment where I am confused and have no longer a clear assessment of
the situation, because the relation between the environment and me as a part of
it is now in the center of attention.And this relation not only creates
contradictions, it is also the foundation of emotions, if emotions are defined
as "assessments of the relation between what I need and the ability of my
environment to provide it".Paradoxically consciousness gives us the ability to
perceive ourself, but it also causes the ultimate confusion. It is enabling us
to act independently of our genes, but also interferes in our ability to do so
unless we are part of a larger group which tells us what to do. -J.
-------- Original message --------From: [email protected] Date: 2/9/21
20:51 (GMT+01:00) To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
<[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the
Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms F And what is the feeler you are using
when you feel them and what exactly is that feeler feeling? I assume your
answer will be that you are using your feeling feeler and what the feeling
feeler is feeling is feelings. (};-)] N PS Glen (at least) is going to
dope-slap us for having in public the same stupid argument again. But I do so
enjoy it. Nick
[email protected]https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From:
Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Frank WimberlySent: Tuesday,
February 9, 2021 1:41 PMTo: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<[email protected]>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Hidden Spring: A Journey to the
Source of Consciousness by Mark Solms Emotions are what I feel.---Frank C.
Wimberly140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505505 670-9918Santa Fe, NM On Tue,
Feb 9, 2021, 12:31 PM <[email protected]> wrote:I might agree with
Burkerman here, if we understand emotions/motives as assessments of the
relation between what I need and the ability of my environment to provide it.
Thanks, all. nNick
[email protected]https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/-----Original
Message-----From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???Sent:
Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:13 PMTo: [email protected]: Re: [FRIAM] The
Hidden Spring: A Journey to the Source of Consciousness by Mark SolmsThanks so
much for posting this, Russ! I finally got around to the Guardian article. I'm
at risk for confirmation bias because I tend to think consciousness is a lossy,
multivalent compression of interoceptive composites. And the extent to which
one can [⛧] feel what it's like to be some (other) thing depends fundamentally
on whether or not you a) have similar elemental interoceptive pathways, b)
whether they compose in a similar way, and c) compress to a similar result.
That allows for a spectrum of similarity from extremes of, say, a rock to a bat
to another human.In any case, it's on the wishlist:
https://bookshop.org/books/the-hidden-spring-a-journey-to-the-source-of-consciousness/9780393542011[⛧]
Feeling like something else is subtly different from *inferring* how something
else feels (or from being manipulated into similar feelings).On 2/6/21 5:15 PM,
Russ Abbott wrote:> About to be published.> > From a review
<https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/05/the-hidden-spring-by-mark-solms-review-the-riddle-of-consciousness-solved>
by Oliver Burkeman:> > Burkeman: Using poignant case studies of neurology
patients – including children born with brain damage, yet plainly still capable
of sadness and joy – [Solms] argues persuasively that consciousness ultimately
arises not in the cortex, the seat of advanced intelligence, but in the more
primitive brainstem, where basic emotions begin.> > Russ: In other words,
consciousness exists far down the tree of life.> > Burkeman: To the best of my
understanding, the gist [of the book] is > that feelings are a uniquely
effective and efficient way for humans to monitor their countless changing
biological needs, in extremely unpredictable environments, to set priorities
for action and make the best choices so as to remain within various bounds – of
hunger, cold and heat, physical danger, social isolation, etc – outside of
which we can’t survive for long. Doing all that without feelings, and doing it
as rapidly as survival requires, would take so many computational resources
that it would lead to a “combinatorial explosion”, demanding levels of energy a
human could never muster.> > Here's Nick Lane's blurb on Amazon >
<https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Spring-Journey-Source-Consciousness/dp/>
0393542017/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8>: (If you know Nick > Lane, you
know he is worth listening to.)> > "At last the emperor has found some clothes!
For decades, consciousness has been perceived as an epiphenomenon, little more
than an illusion that can't really make things happen. Solms takes a thrilling
new approach to the problem, grounded in modern neurobiology but finding
meaning in older ideas going back to Freud. This is an exciting book."> ― Nick
Lane, author of /The Vital Question/--↙↙↙ uǝlƃ- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. ..
... -..-. .... . .-. .FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listservZoom Fridays
9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.comFRIAM-COMIC
http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/-
.... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .FRIAM Applied Complexity
Group listservZoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.comFRIAM-COMIC
http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
