Oh, Gosh. I am once again being dope=slapped by my totalizing language. Please forgive. It is the baby brother clamoring for attention. Better you got to me before Glen did, with his “scalesome, flailsome tail”.
Would I have done better by my thoughts had I written, “Metaphors are more fundamental to scientific discourse than many suppose, and certainly do not deserve the contempt that these many accord them”? n Nick Thompson <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 10:47 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis All you have below, Nick, is both sound and interesting, and at least to the level of a point of view, a position I share. (I won’t take positions on what was important in this or that bit of history of scientific thourght, including endorsing the versions you give below, where I have not studied.) My motto is one I have heard Glen espouse, though I have my own formulation: “Some things in moderation.” I heard Frank, on this occasion as on indefinitely many before it — FRIAM really is like Nietzche’s eternal recurrence in some ways — pushing back against the assertion “Everything is metaphor, and you don’t get to say otherwise”. So no, you don’t execute people for using metaphors; you forbid them any claim that they are ever doing anything else (or that is how I read many of the emails). To elevate metaphors to a totalizing (or totalitarian) philosophical system, into which everything has to be crammed by a kind of scholastic debate, is I think only possible if you forbid that anything can ever be its own, new, self. I think that is probably a mistake. I don’t know if you believe you are doing it, or whether you are doing it. I make whatever I can of the words that come across the screen, and accept responsibility for errors. My impulse — dull and tedious like much I do — is to lampoon metaphors as a philosophical system to try to get at what I object to. So: English descriptions of mechanics aren’t really a new language; they are English, hence metaphors. But if so: English isn’t really “a” language (indefinite article implying distinctness); it’s just a metaphorical use of porto-West Germanic. So is German. But porto-West Germanic wasn’t really “a” language either; it was a metaphorical use of proto-Indo European; A metaphorical use of proto-Nostratic A metaphorical use of porto-Sapiens Of what….? The System requires absurdity. So alongside the question of What is Not New that guides the analysis of (monomania for?) metaphor, I want to put the other question How can something “be” new? And how do new things come into being? When a thing actually is new, I would like to allow myself to recognize that. For scientific language and practice, I am almost interested enough in this question to try to put a little work into it. One thing I don’t want to pass over, because it is too important and too good: Do [you] regard your affection for poetry as a sinful indulgence or do you regard it (as I would) as an essential feature of your scientific imagination. Neither in the primary role. It’s appreciating being alive, and realizing that with life and literacy, I have open to me the joy of experiencing insights and creations of beauty from across time, place, circumstance, and identity. Each mode, in its own name, has a place, not a servant of anything else. Best, Eric On May 9, 2021, at 1:02 PM, <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: EricS, I hope I am not the metaphor Nazi; I certainly don’t want to be him. I certainly don’t want to execute anybody for using metaphors. On the contrary. Rather my point is that they are essential to good thought and that many scientists who voice contempt for metaphors use them regularly all the time in ways that are essential to their work. The Pragmatic value of recognizing that we are using metaphors is that such a recognition leads to a discussion of whether we are using them well. All metaphors, be it good ones or bad ones, import “surplus meaning” into the terms of use, and this surplus meaning can affect scientific thinking for good or ill depending on whether we acknowledge it and systematically explore its implications. Surplus meaning is often the wet edge of discovery but some times the hidden assumption that keeps us from seeing the plain facts before us. The clearest example of this is the metaphor of natural selection in which Darwin imagined that nature is like a giant pigeon coop. This metaphor contain contains an infinity of useful implications and a few that are down right poisonous. It’s important to know which are which. I think Frank’s example of gravity is perhaps another great example. Isn’t it one of Einstein’s greatest insights that the metaphor of attraction implicit in “gravity”, which arose from experiments with primitive magnets in Newton’s time, is not as useful in many instances as the metaphor that massive objects warp the space around them. So, one of Einstein’s great contributions to physics is that he introduced a new metaphor? Do I have that wrong? Do regard your affection for poetry as a sinful indulgence or do you regard it (as I would) as an essential feature of your scientific imagination. I don’t know why it is that moving house seems to free me up to think about everything but moving house. One is not allowed parting shots in parliamentary debate, and I probably shouldn’t be taking them here. Nick Nick Thompson <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,XJhhPJ-oVSl8X4m1HOwWJRzhFdQpyxA1bF6JR4_N6oxF2MP5Qn_sU53PD8ov7bA94VeBYB22Z14WcUI9fxqo8yEX2utlE-B0k02HBDbuyrKCzkMb&typo=1> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of David Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 9:13 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis English has two categories of verbs: intransitive and transitive. If you use an intransitive verb — “yet it moves” — the Metaphor Nazi will catch you coming: claiming you are representing volition. If you use a transitive verb — “it is moved by gravity” — the Metaphor Nazi will catch you going: claiming an agent/patient relation, where the agent is probably (metaphorically) God (!), or whatever God is a metaphor for. And we have from Ecclesiastes (the verse in praise of the Metaphor Nazi): http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/59.html#:~:text=If%20there%20be%20nothing%20new%20(1)%3A%20Compare%20Ecclesiastes%201.9,new%20thing%20under%20the%20sun.%22 <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.shakespeare-online.com%2fsonnets%2f59.html%23%3a~%3atext%3dIf%20there%20be%20nothing%20new%20%281%29%3a%20Compare%20Ecclesiastes%201.9%2cnew%20thing%20under%20the%20sun.%22&c=E,1,3Jr27auXXv3fDam204gK4sg7WCGukhf105TyLUha-RBtqZ4K-YMRv8931y5-6oFd5ZnS6mgE1YeTmw6Ow6g8IalAw6Ks1QwhMH7Mxh7wBGROiw,,&typo=1> Ecclesiastes 1.9: "The thing that hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun." To which the scientist (note small “s”) would like to assert “the language of mechanics is not English; speaking it is a new practice available to people to participate in”. But let Shakespeare have the last word: If there be nothing new, but that which is Hath been before, how are our brains beguil'd, Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss The second burthen of a former child! O, that record could with a backward look, Even of five hundred courses of the sun, Show me your image in some antique book, Since mind at first in character was done! That I might see what the old world could say To this composed wonder of your frame; Whether we are mended, or whe'r better they, Or whether revolution be the same. O! sure I am, the wits of former days To subjects worse have given admiring praise. Eric On May 9, 2021, at 11:36 AM, Prof David West <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: The ball accelerated is clearly a metaphor as it implies that the ball is doing a specific thing, that the ball has behavior and probably volition. This is clearly not what you literally mean. davew On Sat, May 8, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: "The ball accelerated at approximately 32 feet per second squared at sea level in a vacuum." doesn't seem to be a metaphor to me. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Sat, May 8, 2021, 3:07 PM <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Listen, Fella! It’s metaphors all the way down! [shoe thrown] n Nick Thompson <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,76cwsDofsJZfToBxaQU6zR5cllp_k59wtln_iQtSrD8ozjyEN9kt0FPUs4RnuGnWMKFW-nOw3wJjMgAgCJAkSTlh3C3YKbI75yNyUMUvvw,,&typo=1> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz Sent: Saturday, May 8, 2021 1:36 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis First of all, it's just a metaphor (ducking, the shoe barely missing my head) :-) Second of all, that description of animal development sure sounds to me like "following a script". On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 2:23 PM <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: This struck me: When animals develop, they don’t follow a script. Instead, responding to their environment, the cells negotiate and feel their way toward a final form. A fertilized egg divides, and divides again, creating a hollow ball of cells called a blastula; genes instruct these cells to release chemicals, and other cells, reacting to those chemical concentrations, decide to migrate elsewhere or to develop into specific types of tissue. Other influences—oxygen, nutrients, hormones, sometimes toxins—further shape gestation. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily> &utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bd678d924c17c104801f684&cndid=40835928&hasha=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679&hashb=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7&hashc=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb&esrc=AUTO_PRINT&utm_term=TNY_Daily First, note the reliance on psychological terms. This is the sort of passage that would stimulate my teasing Hywel with, “So you see, Hywel, psychology really IS the mother of all sciences.” And don’t any of you DARE to come back at me with, “It’s just a metaphor.” Second, which of these two models encapsulates more closely what you wizards mean by computation. Is carrying out an algorithm more like “computation” or is “building a limb”? Is a salamander’s limb “computed”? If so, who computes it, or is that a violation of the language of computation. I know. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread. Your loyal fool, Nic Nick Thompson [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,kvyM80dHEYWNqV-0eMQdLvzgq9gnoqHZgBnwovx7X25DXpFtBFHjG7rHeqhcFUSqxlCOPKZ_ChyYYA8MEuyB_a_FRcYGgZ_JxXKUF1U4Ncx44i5dHnfxik87XZ1D&typo=1> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,3Sznyb7BegxvJj-W6slkoO2f1XtEbDHhCi3tmPNYOYGO8G4bQHxL3OeYztOXD0Jnkqfg--n0b4oTs0_5hn0ZjLwY1S5d_w88ooKTK69YtiTBeWLt0H7XZAvPaw,,&typo=1> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,e7ikCvmqxBFRYzTHP3wOgCmQsYRmef0a4GwLJQ2quoUnNgQbOEU2NdEDy_DQg9r4aZne4Sk-Ajx_PT1S_t2ucEEUCxuMaJ722nwe5JgbcETp0SxouOocvw,,&typo=1> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,wFK_q-m91VEHsGMYUpaUNfuzpPV5AzYSI5vB9CyFVHgeYqhgOQ1g3KZmGO1JgHxK-aOZ8gOArzf_3L7A6ibm_7MhZTpVoU7l34UrOaxFG4c,&typo=1> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,BpieP7DGHzEVjhJ2T5mWSWPo5jQLi3y02W-E82TotyycTTzeu4MP7WEQw79GnP2tsCGUQO2657ltMXzItlEBOUly7OqJSsL0RUsbVYM0Afcl8C2MBg,,&typo=1> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,1yOlUEyAisbzj0rQqkjyDHz6QGQFS2akCiohpG_JLp4prFS-tjWMMHIY7HHqBkhi_GGnfxAKZ1KQ9wIxExO8UTHhw2hSl5wlY2DAvreTkNE,&typo=1> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,lStijOcgylfWwBgtvwI_wpY6ZSdT_slqXLbQa3G7_Hg2MTOY48j9uCsdzPkLbqmNQQn-fcw2YbeYhedtnHo66j7DoML092OMC1_Vq2u9by5rR2bcow,,&typo=1> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,wQKxNPO8PfO744z2ZIPdPF8iqNel2gN5eKEmrRMwvSbEfhP5cT8LIMIOZeA2qE9dzFQBlkgX4_AWC2UixrrZHt-CY8aJ9HECY0l6h0fxoQ,,&typo=1> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,5HGP2GfoX1_GAsGzBsU2ab-wxNooyPiL_PG7eAI7lQjuowqXpvPWwzLlXV-nPbkvgT5_Z13C1HMfAO9098w0R65xx7NvI-4oLzGH26Yg_yKbe4JDn8zm&typo=1> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,Z5AFvZ55PcJIdf4fhzfSdCp6P8E7AyCq_CcR7O17jZiXvzuPHMpv84-33K35mcFg2cgIsjQP759C82CSeVbNuwmOKwaKYRDT08ldr9MYhsUS1ol8alqi&typo=1> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,O1cUFnWT_MNsJIw_nmSs6d3_EWXkUWrgySKfhcJbDfjt3_R_Wfkd4hMEJ_9EkbouqsRuoulyf8WoytS5gKSvrqG6pNtRZTboMHbVTQgTJekpOE2Y&typo=1> bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,Nz5yZ4_dT59YgqFPv9se8ju_489ZYKSWfVCSOm3_aDgUSRoK28cf1uIl1gITVN4ZFuVb12eWOKPfevDm7kUFlPDMydRMzzP_kerL_myU3lcZtejuQyZ_Iex5Akg,&typo=1> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,Nz5yZ4_dT59YgqFPv9se8ju_489ZYKSWfVCSOm3_aDgUSRoK28cf1uIl1gITVN4ZFuVb12eWOKPfevDm7kUFlPDMydRMzzP_kerL_myU3lcZtejuQyZ_Iex5Akg,&typo=1 FRIAM-COMIC <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,WjFYQBf2goxeqDrZbjyTH8IJeY2g1KCZlmhYqP-zQeh_0EbYFmKHsfEsANmUgMNFm-u7s3ErshUt31bQBHFHPH8_ad4xhXRcvmsrqS2bL7qaRThPddWumVVca1s,&typo=1> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,WjFYQBf2goxeqDrZbjyTH8IJeY2g1KCZlmhYqP-zQeh_0EbYFmKHsfEsANmUgMNFm-u7s3ErshUt31bQBHFHPH8_ad4xhXRcvmsrqS2bL7qaRThPddWumVVca1s,&typo=1 archives: <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,i4hyd5ra0Dql_Tp17p1zSEF_LonbActRDwNeephxgI5RzQxQkGf4UntMZsv51lMawrnj5_96MHdKjLUlRGo00eXcIZ42FKE7MHRWL691boX5PF0czUG8U0A,&typo=1> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,i4hyd5ra0Dql_Tp17p1zSEF_LonbActRDwNeephxgI5RzQxQkGf4UntMZsv51lMawrnj5_96MHdKjLUlRGo00eXcIZ42FKE7MHRWL691boX5PF0czUG8U0A,&typo=1 FRIAM-COMIC <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SLCLsRWlIBPMM71jpz4_izFtshIYxKrO9FkMXiqI9diMMsYx4-lg8JjBLsrHeprAbFM3CK6TQZqDNpCTT03V4p7Fck2HpufitC4m1R3lxiuiSgfjR0NsnCk,&typo=1> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,SLCLsRWlIBPMM71jpz4_izFtshIYxKrO9FkMXiqI9diMMsYx4-lg8JjBLsrHeprAbFM3CK6TQZqDNpCTT03V4p7Fck2HpufitC4m1R3lxiuiSgfjR0NsnCk,&typo=1 archives: <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
