Unless the psycho's lesson simulates a counter freak-out. Then we'd have to know they were a psycho just simulating in order to record it properly. Because ideal psychos are so rare, I maintain that counter freak-outs work better to regulate freak-outs than cold-blooded punitive reactions do. My dad claiming 'this will hurt me more than you' prior to an ass whooping was far less helpful to me than when my freak-out (seemingly) pushed him into his own freak-out.
To boot, cold-bloodedness is a passive aggressive form of toxic masculinity. I was taught that stoicism is manly and emotion (especially flooding) is a weak, womanly thing. (We even have a special word for it: hysterical.) It's complete bullshit. Men have just as much freak-outery as women, if not more. And to argue for suppression carries a vaguely misogynist tint. In fact, one of the freak-out types I exhibited as a kid was to cry, which invariably incensed my dad into a macho counter freak-out yelling 'I'll give you something to cry about!' followed by an extended beating. On April 28, 2022 4:39:09 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> wrote: >I think Glen's equivocation is revealing. It is fine in this view to have >the loud, badgering, self-indulgent feelers take energy away from the >dead-eyed psychopaths, but the reverse can happen quietly in the way Steve >just said. At least if the dead-eyed psychopaths make an example of the >feelers, then we know something happened -- they haven't been victimized in a >way that is not recorded. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels >Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 4:00 PM >To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant > >Steve writes: > >"I have had moments in my life when faced with other's Freak-Outs came away >feeling like I might be a closet sociopath because while *they* were freaking >out, *I* was calculating my next move with them to manipulate their Freak-Out >to my benefit." > >That's the normal course of events. I have this idea there should be a >ceremony to address it because *merely* exploiting it leaves a stone unturned. > >Marcus > >-----Original Message----- >From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith >Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 3:57 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant > >My own self-analysis around this is that when I *do* find myself in a >Freak-Out, that there is a meta-level strategy in play... that the Freak-Out >represents adding heat in the annealing sense to break out of a local minima, >and/or "tunneling" for the same reason... ignoring my manners/politeness >within a limited space-time context to solve a problem that the >full-dimensional trajectories simply didn't allow for: "you cant get there >from here". Thus the pursuit for varied "altered states" including what I >think Glen is describing broadly as "Freak-Out"... lowered inhibitions, etc. > > >FWIW I was raised in a very stoic family in a generally stoic subculture and I >still hold lots of judgement about Freak-Outs, covering the range of examples >and counter-examples both of you (Glen and Marcus) have described. I have >had moments in my life when faced with other's Freak-Outs came away feeling >like I might be a closet sociopath because while *they* were freaking out, *I* >was calculating my next move with them to manipulate their Freak-Out to my >benefit. For the most part, I found I had some kind of ethical center that >saw that as "wrong" and avoided acting on it,. And yet I still practiced it >in my mind, maybe preparing for the day when someone's Freak-Out was so >threatening to my life/livelihood that I could justify that manipulation? I >cringed a little when Glen described control-in-the-face-of-Freak-Out as being >a >(necessary/useful?) tool, because that cuts too close to the quick of my >mistrust of my own inner Sociopath. > > >On 4/28/22 4:12 PM, glen wrote: >> I like everything about that layout except the "outside the >> abilities". I think those of us who "lose it" actually want to lose it >> ... or enjoy losing it ... like dancing at a rave at the DJs crecendo. >> Some part of them knows it's unproductive. And they don't have to be >> all that sociopathic, ignoring the feelings of those around them or >> being all that ignorant of their trajectory towards freak-out. They >> just *want* the freak-out. It feels good. >> >> The trick is that some of us have manners and try to adapt to context >> and others don't ... or simply don't have the willingness to classify >> contexts and match them with different manners/modes. The right >> wingers who go on and on about "wokeness" are this way. They simply >> don't *want* to exhibit good manners. The same might be true of a >> freaking out antifa shouting at a nazi. >> >> It's all about wants and (physiological) reward. What are they getting >> from their chosen behavior? If they wanted to calm down, they would. >> >> On 4/28/22 15:03, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> My reasoning goes like this. 1) I know there is a difference between >>> the things I feel and the behaviors I have that could reveal them. >>> It is not a perfectly controlled thing, of course, but I have a >>> degree of control. This control leads to some control of the >>> feelings themselves. As you say, one can whip themselves up, but >>> one can also calm themselves. 2) I would never pull one of these >>> vehicular stunts unless it was a theatrical motivation for a third >>> party to observe or I was artificially influenced by a high dose of >>> testosterone, adrenaline, meth, etc. A common situation like low >>> blood sugar or high caffeine wouldn't be enough. I just wouldn't >>> even think about it if someone flipped me off. I might feel bad if >>> I thought I had made a mistake and deserved criticism/shaming, but I >>> wouldn't then thrust my car in front of another leading to who knows >>> what outcome for no reason at all. >>> >>> I don't think thresholding is the right way to model it. It is more >>> like can one estimate how cool or agitated they are and modulate the >>> situations to avoid unproductive conflict. Some people I have found >>> can't recognize their own degree of agitation. The flooding is going >>> outside the abilities of the control system. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 2:44 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant >>> >>> Well, I purposefully chose to use sociopathy in this example to >>> indicate the complete competency spectrum. A flood-prone sociopath >>> *needs* to get good at suppressing their freak-outs. A psychopath >>> doesn't need to suppress anything. There's no such thing as an ideal >>> psychopath, of course. We're all a little psycho to some extent. >>> >>> But if you're asserting there's a difference between freak-out >>> behavior and a freaked-out mental state, then we might expect the >>> monists to come flying out of the woodwork with their loops on >>> repeat. It's a social skill, a competence, to be able to *whip* >>> oneself up into a state of enthusiasm ... or even a state of Flow. >>> When you enter the MMA ring, you don't calm yourself, meditate, and >>> relax. You whip yourself into a [controlled] freak-out. Explosive >>> athletics require freaked-out mentality *and* often quite a bit of >>> bit of freak-out behavior. >>> >>> This conception of flooding and freaking out as some sort of >>> over-the-threshhold loss of control is idealistic nonsense. That's >>> the heart of my claim that freak-outs aren't the problem. >>> >>> On 4/28/22 14:32, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> Sure, it depends whether we define a state-of-mind as the freak out, >>>> or the observed behavior of the freak out. The former could >>>> happen, and no one would know. And I think you are confusing >>>> sociopathy with psychopathy in this example. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 2:24 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant >>>> >>>> But by keeping it together, you *weaken* your plausible deniability. >>>> Keeping it together would give the prosecutor the ammunition to >>>> accuse you of [pre]mediated murder (with [pre] in brackets because >>>> it's not technically pre-mediated murder). The more cold-blooded you >>>> are, the more likely we'll interpret your killing as cold-blooded >>>> murder. >>>> >>>> So a competent sociopath gets good at *simulating* freak-outs. >>>> Again, the freak-out isn't the problem, here. Freaking out is a tool >>>> just like any other. And it's rational and intelligent to use the >>>> tool deliberately. >>>> >>>> On 4/28/22 14:17, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>> Just to clarify, I wouldn't shoot the guy because I was emotional. >>>>> He was the one that experienced the freak out. In some potential >>>>> circumstance, I would potentially do it for protection of my >>>>> passenger, and to a lesser extent as a sort of public service, >>>>> because the opportunity was given to me in the context of >>>>> (plausible) self-defense. The subtler reason that excuse would be >>>>> appealing would be due to the basic injustice that I was basically >>>>> keeping it together and he was not, and keeping it together is >>>>> work. So why should I take on the burden for adapting to lazy >>>>> people? Just because I can? If we go around making special >>>>> accommodations for people that don't try to keep it together, one >>>>> can expect a lot more of it. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 1:49 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant >>>>> >>>>> Well, OK. So we can partition freak-outs into (at least) 2 types: >>>>> angry vs joyous ... or whatever other false binary you choose (pro- >>>>> vs anti-social perhaps). Then we argue for suppression of one but >>>>> not suppression of the other? Pffft. That doesn't work. E.g. >>>>> https://youtu.be/etK7e7iBJVQ You'd just end up living in a world of >>>>> dead-eyed automatons. >>>>> >>>>> What you seem to be targeting, here, is *material* cause. Those of >>>>> us who tend to flood more than others need less access to powerful >>>>> tools like cars and guns. Again, it's not the freak-out that's the >>>>> problem. It's the network in which the freak-out exists. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/28/22 13:40, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>>> It's not about the manners, it's about learning to distance from >>>>>> discomfort. Like continuing to press a climb up a hill on a >>>>>> bicycle while the lactic acid burns your legs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Spend some time around someone with borderline personality >>>>>> disorder for a while, you will change your mind. >>>>>> >>>>>> Road rage is a common example. The other day there was a bicycle >>>>>> that I was approaching who wasn't going very fast, even for a >>>>>> bicyclist. She did have every right to be there, and so I was >>>>>> also going slow to wait for her to get around a parked car before >>>>>> I passed. Meanwhile, some lunatic comes up behind us laying on >>>>>> his horn, oscillating from the left side of the lane to the right >>>>>> trying to find a way around. Because he went so far right, there >>>>>> was no way he couldn't see the bicyclist. I don't have a lot of >>>>>> patience for this kind of behavior, so I indicated my displeasure >>>>>> with a middle finger. This individual then roars in front of us >>>>>> both and puts his car horizontally in front of mine. He gets out >>>>>> and starts banging on my window to get his "catharsis". Had I >>>>>> determined he was an actual threat to us, I might have pushed his >>>>>> car out the way with mine (which was much larger), or had I a >>>>>> weapon, shot him. F*ck his catharsis, he can share the minor >>>>>> frustration of daily life with the rest of us, and in silence >>>>>> please. There is no benefit in his freak out, it was basically a >>>>>> criminal act as far as I was concerned. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are situations which a rant is truly righteous, but I have >>>>>> found mostly no one cares about that. Usually this discovery >>>>>> comes at some personal or professional cost. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 1:20 PM >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant >>>>>> >>>>>> "This is your last free article." [baaaaahhhhhhhh] Now what am I >>>>>> gonna read this weekend!?!? Damn you! [stomp][stomp][stomp] >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, I disagree completely with the point being made, there. >>>>>> The freak-out improves relationships and rationality, smooths over >>>>>> difficulties in the real world, and has all sorts of >>>>>> narrative-breaking, cathartic benefits. In the same way that >>>>>> convictions to ideologies foster conservatism and hamper progress, >>>>>> the suppression of one's freak-outs amounts to rejecting a large >>>>>> array of measures and indicators one might ordinarily use to >>>>>> understand the world. The problem isn't the freak-out. The problem >>>>>> is a lack of tolerance *for* freak-outs. It's the repressed >>>>>> Victorians running around complaining about the lack of manners >>>>>> and decorum around them. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please. Don't repress your freak-outs. We're tough. We can >>>>>> withstand your freak-out and use it to better plan for the future. >>>>>> The last thing we need is to turn into a bunch of dead-affect >>>>>> emotionless, freak-out-free psychopaths. Where would stand-up >>>>>> comedy be without freak-outs? Where would we get our qualia-laden >>>>>> *rants* from? What even is laughing if *not* a kind of freak-out? >>>>>> >>>>>> I haven't had the giggles in decades. But for some reason, a group >>>>>> of us were eating lunch a few weeks ago. Someone told a joke. >>>>>> Another someone kept laughing. I mean, even after the topic had >>>>>> changed and everyone'd moved on. This dude kept laughing. I tried >>>>>> to take a sip of beer and I ended up snorting it ... just because >>>>>> that other dude kept laughing. I'm allergic to barley. So when I >>>>>> snort beer it seriously messes me up for about an hour or 2. >>>>>> Fvcking laughing. Stupid freak-out. I should have suppressed it. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/28/22 12:53, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>>>> “Emotional flooding might have helped your Pleistocene ancestors >>>>>>> survive, but it is maladapted to most modern interactions.” >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2022/04/how-to-manage- >>>>>>> em >>>>>>> o >>>>>>> t >>>>>>> ions-and-reactions/629692/ >>>>>>> <https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2022/04/how-to-manage >>>>>>> -e >>>>>>> m >>>>>>> o >>>>>>> tions-and-reactions/629692/> >>>>>> >>>> >> >> >-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >bit.ly/virtualfriam >un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >bit.ly/virtualfriam >un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -- glen ⛧ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . 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