Steve writes: "I have had moments in my life when faced with other's Freak-Outs came away feeling like I might be a closet sociopath because while *they* were freaking out, *I* was calculating my next move with them to manipulate their Freak-Out to my benefit."
That's the normal course of events. I have this idea there should be a ceremony to address it because *merely* exploiting it leaves a stone unturned. Marcus -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 3:57 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant My own self-analysis around this is that when I *do* find myself in a Freak-Out, that there is a meta-level strategy in play... that the Freak-Out represents adding heat in the annealing sense to break out of a local minima, and/or "tunneling" for the same reason... ignoring my manners/politeness within a limited space-time context to solve a problem that the full-dimensional trajectories simply didn't allow for: "you cant get there from here". Thus the pursuit for varied "altered states" including what I think Glen is describing broadly as "Freak-Out"... lowered inhibitions, etc. FWIW I was raised in a very stoic family in a generally stoic subculture and I still hold lots of judgement about Freak-Outs, covering the range of examples and counter-examples both of you (Glen and Marcus) have described. I have had moments in my life when faced with other's Freak-Outs came away feeling like I might be a closet sociopath because while *they* were freaking out, *I* was calculating my next move with them to manipulate their Freak-Out to my benefit. For the most part, I found I had some kind of ethical center that saw that as "wrong" and avoided acting on it,. And yet I still practiced it in my mind, maybe preparing for the day when someone's Freak-Out was so threatening to my life/livelihood that I could justify that manipulation? I cringed a little when Glen described control-in-the-face-of-Freak-Out as being a (necessary/useful?) tool, because that cuts too close to the quick of my mistrust of my own inner Sociopath. On 4/28/22 4:12 PM, glen wrote: > I like everything about that layout except the "outside the > abilities". I think those of us who "lose it" actually want to lose it > ... or enjoy losing it ... like dancing at a rave at the DJs crecendo. > Some part of them knows it's unproductive. And they don't have to be > all that sociopathic, ignoring the feelings of those around them or > being all that ignorant of their trajectory towards freak-out. They > just *want* the freak-out. It feels good. > > The trick is that some of us have manners and try to adapt to context > and others don't ... or simply don't have the willingness to classify > contexts and match them with different manners/modes. The right > wingers who go on and on about "wokeness" are this way. They simply > don't *want* to exhibit good manners. The same might be true of a > freaking out antifa shouting at a nazi. > > It's all about wants and (physiological) reward. What are they getting > from their chosen behavior? If they wanted to calm down, they would. > > On 4/28/22 15:03, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> My reasoning goes like this. 1) I know there is a difference between >> the things I feel and the behaviors I have that could reveal them. >> It is not a perfectly controlled thing, of course, but I have a >> degree of control. This control leads to some control of the >> feelings themselves. As you say, one can whip themselves up, but >> one can also calm themselves. 2) I would never pull one of these >> vehicular stunts unless it was a theatrical motivation for a third >> party to observe or I was artificially influenced by a high dose of >> testosterone, adrenaline, meth, etc. A common situation like low >> blood sugar or high caffeine wouldn't be enough. I just wouldn't >> even think about it if someone flipped me off. I might feel bad if >> I thought I had made a mistake and deserved criticism/shaming, but I >> wouldn't then thrust my car in front of another leading to who knows >> what outcome for no reason at all. >> >> I don't think thresholding is the right way to model it. It is more >> like can one estimate how cool or agitated they are and modulate the >> situations to avoid unproductive conflict. Some people I have found >> can't recognize their own degree of agitation. The flooding is going >> outside the abilities of the control system. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 2:44 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant >> >> Well, I purposefully chose to use sociopathy in this example to >> indicate the complete competency spectrum. A flood-prone sociopath >> *needs* to get good at suppressing their freak-outs. A psychopath >> doesn't need to suppress anything. There's no such thing as an ideal >> psychopath, of course. We're all a little psycho to some extent. >> >> But if you're asserting there's a difference between freak-out >> behavior and a freaked-out mental state, then we might expect the >> monists to come flying out of the woodwork with their loops on >> repeat. It's a social skill, a competence, to be able to *whip* >> oneself up into a state of enthusiasm ... or even a state of Flow. >> When you enter the MMA ring, you don't calm yourself, meditate, and >> relax. You whip yourself into a [controlled] freak-out. Explosive >> athletics require freaked-out mentality *and* often quite a bit of >> bit of freak-out behavior. >> >> This conception of flooding and freaking out as some sort of >> over-the-threshhold loss of control is idealistic nonsense. That's >> the heart of my claim that freak-outs aren't the problem. >> >> On 4/28/22 14:32, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> Sure, it depends whether we define a state-of-mind as the freak out, >>> or the observed behavior of the freak out. The former could >>> happen, and no one would know. And I think you are confusing >>> sociopathy with psychopathy in this example. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 2:24 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant >>> >>> But by keeping it together, you *weaken* your plausible deniability. >>> Keeping it together would give the prosecutor the ammunition to >>> accuse you of [pre]mediated murder (with [pre] in brackets because >>> it's not technically pre-mediated murder). The more cold-blooded you >>> are, the more likely we'll interpret your killing as cold-blooded >>> murder. >>> >>> So a competent sociopath gets good at *simulating* freak-outs. >>> Again, the freak-out isn't the problem, here. Freaking out is a tool >>> just like any other. And it's rational and intelligent to use the >>> tool deliberately. >>> >>> On 4/28/22 14:17, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> Just to clarify, I wouldn't shoot the guy because I was emotional. >>>> He was the one that experienced the freak out. In some potential >>>> circumstance, I would potentially do it for protection of my >>>> passenger, and to a lesser extent as a sort of public service, >>>> because the opportunity was given to me in the context of >>>> (plausible) self-defense. The subtler reason that excuse would be >>>> appealing would be due to the basic injustice that I was basically >>>> keeping it together and he was not, and keeping it together is >>>> work. So why should I take on the burden for adapting to lazy >>>> people? Just because I can? If we go around making special >>>> accommodations for people that don't try to keep it together, one >>>> can expect a lot more of it. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 1:49 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant >>>> >>>> Well, OK. So we can partition freak-outs into (at least) 2 types: >>>> angry vs joyous ... or whatever other false binary you choose (pro- >>>> vs anti-social perhaps). Then we argue for suppression of one but >>>> not suppression of the other? Pffft. That doesn't work. E.g. >>>> https://youtu.be/etK7e7iBJVQ You'd just end up living in a world of >>>> dead-eyed automatons. >>>> >>>> What you seem to be targeting, here, is *material* cause. Those of >>>> us who tend to flood more than others need less access to powerful >>>> tools like cars and guns. Again, it's not the freak-out that's the >>>> problem. It's the network in which the freak-out exists. >>>> >>>> On 4/28/22 13:40, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>> It's not about the manners, it's about learning to distance from >>>>> discomfort. Like continuing to press a climb up a hill on a >>>>> bicycle while the lactic acid burns your legs. >>>>> >>>>> Spend some time around someone with borderline personality >>>>> disorder for a while, you will change your mind. >>>>> >>>>> Road rage is a common example. The other day there was a bicycle >>>>> that I was approaching who wasn't going very fast, even for a >>>>> bicyclist. She did have every right to be there, and so I was >>>>> also going slow to wait for her to get around a parked car before >>>>> I passed. Meanwhile, some lunatic comes up behind us laying on >>>>> his horn, oscillating from the left side of the lane to the right >>>>> trying to find a way around. Because he went so far right, there >>>>> was no way he couldn't see the bicyclist. I don't have a lot of >>>>> patience for this kind of behavior, so I indicated my displeasure >>>>> with a middle finger. This individual then roars in front of us >>>>> both and puts his car horizontally in front of mine. He gets out >>>>> and starts banging on my window to get his "catharsis". Had I >>>>> determined he was an actual threat to us, I might have pushed his >>>>> car out the way with mine (which was much larger), or had I a >>>>> weapon, shot him. F*ck his catharsis, he can share the minor >>>>> frustration of daily life with the rest of us, and in silence >>>>> please. There is no benefit in his freak out, it was basically a >>>>> criminal act as far as I was concerned. >>>>> >>>>> There are situations which a rant is truly righteous, but I have >>>>> found mostly no one cares about that. Usually this discovery >>>>> comes at some personal or professional cost. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 1:20 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant >>>>> >>>>> "This is your last free article." [baaaaahhhhhhhh] Now what am I >>>>> gonna read this weekend!?!? Damn you! [stomp][stomp][stomp] >>>>> >>>>> Of course, I disagree completely with the point being made, there. >>>>> The freak-out improves relationships and rationality, smooths over >>>>> difficulties in the real world, and has all sorts of >>>>> narrative-breaking, cathartic benefits. In the same way that >>>>> convictions to ideologies foster conservatism and hamper progress, >>>>> the suppression of one's freak-outs amounts to rejecting a large >>>>> array of measures and indicators one might ordinarily use to >>>>> understand the world. The problem isn't the freak-out. The problem >>>>> is a lack of tolerance *for* freak-outs. It's the repressed >>>>> Victorians running around complaining about the lack of manners >>>>> and decorum around them. >>>>> >>>>> Please. Don't repress your freak-outs. We're tough. We can >>>>> withstand your freak-out and use it to better plan for the future. >>>>> The last thing we need is to turn into a bunch of dead-affect >>>>> emotionless, freak-out-free psychopaths. Where would stand-up >>>>> comedy be without freak-outs? Where would we get our qualia-laden >>>>> *rants* from? What even is laughing if *not* a kind of freak-out? >>>>> >>>>> I haven't had the giggles in decades. But for some reason, a group >>>>> of us were eating lunch a few weeks ago. Someone told a joke. >>>>> Another someone kept laughing. I mean, even after the topic had >>>>> changed and everyone'd moved on. This dude kept laughing. I tried >>>>> to take a sip of beer and I ended up snorting it ... just because >>>>> that other dude kept laughing. I'm allergic to barley. So when I >>>>> snort beer it seriously messes me up for about an hour or 2. >>>>> Fvcking laughing. Stupid freak-out. I should have suppressed it. >>>>> >>>>> On 4/28/22 12:53, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>>> “Emotional flooding might have helped your Pleistocene ancestors >>>>>> survive, but it is maladapted to most modern interactions.” >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2022/04/how-to-manage- >>>>>> em >>>>>> o >>>>>> t >>>>>> ions-and-reactions/629692/ >>>>>> <https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2022/04/how-to-manage >>>>>> -e >>>>>> m >>>>>> o >>>>>> tions-and-reactions/629692/> >>>>> >>> > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
