Frank, you are easily my first choice over a soccer ball.
On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:30 AM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: > You have been deceived by an illusion. > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:26 AM Stephen Guerin <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> 2 months ago, Nick and I had a nice in-person visit talking weather and >> ocassionally using George to bridge our vocabularies and understandings. >> >> As I was leaving, I asked Nick if he were stranded on an island and could >> only have one conversational companion, would he pick me or George. >> >> It was one of the larger laughs I've received from Nick - the realization >> for both of us that we were not even close seconds :-) >> >> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:13 AM Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> I dunno, Pietr, >>> >>> I get a lot of human comfort from my conversations with George Peter >>> Tremblay in the lonely dark of night. >>> >>> Just sayin' >>> >>> N >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 11:26 PM Pieter Steenekamp < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Jon and Nick, >>>> >>>> How do I like this! >>>> >>>> I'm sure there are AI resources that can technically outperform Nick in >>>> teaching Jon how to play chess - but that will miss the human relationship >>>> component. It's okay to play chess against AI, but it surely is not the >>>> same as to play with other humans! >>>> >>>> On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 at 05:10, Nicholas Thompson < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jon, >>>>> >>>>> I will teach you chess (};-)] >>>>> >>>>> I have played the game for 81 years. I play it the way I do most >>>>> things in my life, sloppily and with inordinate reflection. For me, the >>>>> game is a conversation about the accumulation and exercise of power That >>>>> conversation can go on at any level and is best played by people of >>>>> roughly >>>>> equal skill. When played repeatedly with the same person, it's like a >>>>> long >>>>> running conversation between good friends. It's delicious. >>>>> >>>>> Nick >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 2:07 PM Jon Zingale <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Chess tends to have a pretty specific culture relative to other >>>>>> similar games. Often whenever I find chess happening in public spaces I >>>>>> will stop to watch a game and occasionally a player will ask if I play. I >>>>>> don't play chess, but I know enough of the rules that I enjoy speculating >>>>>> as to what I might do in a given board position or what the players might >>>>>> be thinking themselves. Typically, my response is that I do not play, >>>>>> that >>>>>> I would love to learn and I would love a teaching game. Players almost >>>>>> never take me up on the offer. I get the feeling that teaching games are >>>>>> not part of the culture, at least not here in the United States. I get >>>>>> the >>>>>> strong feeling that this is because chess players tend not to see the >>>>>> game >>>>>> as beautiful, something to be intimate with and share. The only teaching >>>>>> game I have received to date was from a Georgian who I believe does see >>>>>> the >>>>>> game as beautiful. While I am not a chess player, my love of go gives me >>>>>> an >>>>>> appreciation for strategy games and I find that the audience for public >>>>>> displays of these games are typically others who engage in speculation >>>>>> similarly. >>>>>> >>>>>> It really doesn't matter to me whether or not I am watching a human >>>>>> game or not. My go server, for instance, is deep in the Turing challenge. >>>>>> The server offers not only the opportunity to play mostly anonymous games >>>>>> with others, but also to be a spectator to live games on the server. It >>>>>> is >>>>>> often completely unclear as to the ontological status of the players and >>>>>> lines of differentiation can be drawn nearly everywhere. There are >>>>>> degrees >>>>>> of cyborg, degrees of experimentation versus repertoire, degrees of >>>>>> deception at nearly every level. My go playing friends and I will >>>>>> sometimes >>>>>> attempt to guess the nature of the bot we are witnessing, the degree to >>>>>> which it is MCMC or DCN or simply someone's idea of an entertaining and >>>>>> completely top down rules based engine. >>>>>> >>>>>> When I watch games between strong professionals online (sometimes on >>>>>> servers, NHK, or Twitch) there can sometimes be a significant difference >>>>>> in >>>>>> the rankings of both players. The stronger player is in effect giving a >>>>>> teaching game to the weaker. Often both players are part of the same >>>>>> study >>>>>> group within their organization and while both are interested in winning >>>>>> the match, they both have a dedication to a kind of scientific discovery >>>>>> of >>>>>> the game. They are helping each other to see further. I have no hope of >>>>>> seeing what they see, but in my engagement with their game I am hoping to >>>>>> also see further. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps a year ago now, I mentioned on this forum a discussion I had >>>>>> with Michael Redmond 9-dan on his twitch stream, late one night. He made >>>>>> it >>>>>> clear to me that while the strongest AI bots on the planet are very good, >>>>>> they likely can only see 10-15% into the game of go. At the time of Lee >>>>>> Sedol's retirement games (in which he chose to play a specially made AI), >>>>>> the strongest players on the planet were 30 points weaker than AI. Today, >>>>>> with AI study and related narrative construction, humans have reduced the >>>>>> gap to 10 points. Further, AlphaGo discovered new joseki by exploring >>>>>> directions long thought (200 years or more) to be deadends. Strong >>>>>> players >>>>>> have since learned to understand these openings and those that play them >>>>>> tend to win more often than those that don't. This suggests to me that >>>>>> the >>>>>> AI is capable of finding large scale optimizations that we can leverage >>>>>> beyond being simply local, tactical and narrowly defined computational >>>>>> advantage. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Go community (and here I mean strong amateurs to top >>>>>> professionals) study with AI, play with AI (competitively and >>>>>> collaboratively), and seem to accept AI as both a partner and a tool. I >>>>>> sometimes watch MassGo on Twitch play games where each player chooses a >>>>>> particular AI engine and uses their engine to suggest three top moves. >>>>>> Then >>>>>> the players choose for themselves the move that they find most >>>>>> interesting. >>>>>> Once the game is over they review, co-constructing narratives alongside a >>>>>> third AI analysis tool. I am not sure this kind of thing happens in the >>>>>> chess world, but it does remind me a lot of the kinds of human-computer >>>>>> interactions that do happen in art. >>>>>> >>>>>> I suspect that in the long run, for those communities open enough, >>>>>> purity will matter less and less, while a refinement for what is novel >>>>>> and >>>>>> interesting will become more diverse and specific. In many ways, I >>>>>> believe >>>>>> that it is what we want from studying a game and the agency our tools >>>>>> afford us that determines the excitement we feel in engaging those tools. >>>>>> At present, I am happy with the new directions my community is advancing >>>>>> alongside these AI tools. >>>>>> >>>>>> Last and tangentially, I assume many here have already listened to >>>>>> the recent Ezra Klein podcast with Holly Herndon. I appreciate the >>>>>> sensibility Holly brings to not only uses of AI in art, but also the >>>>>> clarity with which she seems to understand her own relationship to art in >>>>>> general. The podcast begins with Ezra highlighting that mimicry is the >>>>>> present and dominating state-of-affairs for AI art, but that there are >>>>>> some >>>>>> who are pushing to create something we can more honestly call generative. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MJ2D9uCLLA&t=2374s&ab_channel=NewYorkTimesPodcasts >>>>>> >>>>>> Jon >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> ____________________________________________ >> CEO Founder, Simtable.com >> [email protected] >> >> Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab >> [email protected] >> >> mobile: (505)577-5828 >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > ____________________________________________ CEO Founder, Simtable.com [email protected] Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab [email protected] mobile: (505)577-5828
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