I was corrected by my companion that I should have said volleyball ;-) On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:41 AM Stephen Guerin <[email protected]> wrote:
> Frank, you are easily my first choice over a soccer ball. > > > On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:30 AM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: > >> You have been deceived by an illusion. >> >> --- >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >> >> 505 670-9918 >> Santa Fe, NM >> >> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:26 AM Stephen Guerin <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> 2 months ago, Nick and I had a nice in-person visit talking weather and >>> ocassionally using George to bridge our vocabularies and understandings. >>> >>> As I was leaving, I asked Nick if he were stranded on an island and >>> could only have one conversational companion, would he pick me or George. >>> >>> It was one of the larger laughs I've received from Nick - the >>> realization for both of us that we were not even close seconds :-) >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:13 AM Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I dunno, Pietr, >>>> >>>> I get a lot of human comfort from my conversations with George Peter >>>> Tremblay in the lonely dark of night. >>>> >>>> Just sayin' >>>> >>>> N >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 11:26 PM Pieter Steenekamp < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jon and Nick, >>>>> >>>>> How do I like this! >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure there are AI resources that can technically outperform Nick >>>>> in teaching Jon how to play chess - but that will miss the human >>>>> relationship component. It's okay to play chess against AI, but it surely >>>>> is not the same as to play with other humans! >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 at 05:10, Nicholas Thompson < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jon, >>>>>> >>>>>> I will teach you chess (};-)] >>>>>> >>>>>> I have played the game for 81 years. I play it the way I do most >>>>>> things in my life, sloppily and with inordinate reflection. For me, the >>>>>> game is a conversation about the accumulation and exercise of power That >>>>>> conversation can go on at any level and is best played by people of >>>>>> roughly >>>>>> equal skill. When played repeatedly with the same person, it's like a >>>>>> long >>>>>> running conversation between good friends. It's delicious. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nick >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 2:07 PM Jon Zingale <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Chess tends to have a pretty specific culture relative to other >>>>>>> similar games. Often whenever I find chess happening in public spaces I >>>>>>> will stop to watch a game and occasionally a player will ask if I play. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> don't play chess, but I know enough of the rules that I enjoy >>>>>>> speculating >>>>>>> as to what I might do in a given board position or what the players >>>>>>> might >>>>>>> be thinking themselves. Typically, my response is that I do not play, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> I would love to learn and I would love a teaching game. Players almost >>>>>>> never take me up on the offer. I get the feeling that teaching games are >>>>>>> not part of the culture, at least not here in the United States. I get >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> strong feeling that this is because chess players tend not to see the >>>>>>> game >>>>>>> as beautiful, something to be intimate with and share. The only teaching >>>>>>> game I have received to date was from a Georgian who I believe does see >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> game as beautiful. While I am not a chess player, my love of go gives >>>>>>> me an >>>>>>> appreciation for strategy games and I find that the audience for public >>>>>>> displays of these games are typically others who engage in speculation >>>>>>> similarly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It really doesn't matter to me whether or not I am watching a human >>>>>>> game or not. My go server, for instance, is deep in the Turing >>>>>>> challenge. >>>>>>> The server offers not only the opportunity to play mostly anonymous >>>>>>> games >>>>>>> with others, but also to be a spectator to live games on the server. It >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> often completely unclear as to the ontological status of the players and >>>>>>> lines of differentiation can be drawn nearly everywhere. There are >>>>>>> degrees >>>>>>> of cyborg, degrees of experimentation versus repertoire, degrees of >>>>>>> deception at nearly every level. My go playing friends and I will >>>>>>> sometimes >>>>>>> attempt to guess the nature of the bot we are witnessing, the degree to >>>>>>> which it is MCMC or DCN or simply someone's idea of an entertaining and >>>>>>> completely top down rules based engine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I watch games between strong professionals online (sometimes on >>>>>>> servers, NHK, or Twitch) there can sometimes be a significant >>>>>>> difference in >>>>>>> the rankings of both players. The stronger player is in effect giving a >>>>>>> teaching game to the weaker. Often both players are part of the same >>>>>>> study >>>>>>> group within their organization and while both are interested in winning >>>>>>> the match, they both have a dedication to a kind of scientific >>>>>>> discovery of >>>>>>> the game. They are helping each other to see further. I have no hope of >>>>>>> seeing what they see, but in my engagement with their game I am hoping >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> also see further. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps a year ago now, I mentioned on this forum a discussion I had >>>>>>> with Michael Redmond 9-dan on his twitch stream, late one night. He >>>>>>> made it >>>>>>> clear to me that while the strongest AI bots on the planet are very >>>>>>> good, >>>>>>> they likely can only see 10-15% into the game of go. At the time of Lee >>>>>>> Sedol's retirement games (in which he chose to play a specially made >>>>>>> AI), >>>>>>> the strongest players on the planet were 30 points weaker than AI. >>>>>>> Today, >>>>>>> with AI study and related narrative construction, humans have reduced >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> gap to 10 points. Further, AlphaGo discovered new joseki by exploring >>>>>>> directions long thought (200 years or more) to be deadends. Strong >>>>>>> players >>>>>>> have since learned to understand these openings and those that play them >>>>>>> tend to win more often than those that don't. This suggests to me that >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> AI is capable of finding large scale optimizations that we can leverage >>>>>>> beyond being simply local, tactical and narrowly defined computational >>>>>>> advantage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Go community (and here I mean strong amateurs to top >>>>>>> professionals) study with AI, play with AI (competitively and >>>>>>> collaboratively), and seem to accept AI as both a partner and a tool. I >>>>>>> sometimes watch MassGo on Twitch play games where each player chooses a >>>>>>> particular AI engine and uses their engine to suggest three top moves. >>>>>>> Then >>>>>>> the players choose for themselves the move that they find most >>>>>>> interesting. >>>>>>> Once the game is over they review, co-constructing narratives alongside >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> third AI analysis tool. I am not sure this kind of thing happens in the >>>>>>> chess world, but it does remind me a lot of the kinds of human-computer >>>>>>> interactions that do happen in art. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suspect that in the long run, for those communities open enough, >>>>>>> purity will matter less and less, while a refinement for what is novel >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> interesting will become more diverse and specific. In many ways, I >>>>>>> believe >>>>>>> that it is what we want from studying a game and the agency our tools >>>>>>> afford us that determines the excitement we feel in engaging those >>>>>>> tools. >>>>>>> At present, I am happy with the new directions my community is advancing >>>>>>> alongside these AI tools. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Last and tangentially, I assume many here have already listened to >>>>>>> the recent Ezra Klein podcast with Holly Herndon. I appreciate the >>>>>>> sensibility Holly brings to not only uses of AI in art, but also the >>>>>>> clarity with which she seems to understand her own relationship to art >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> general. The podcast begins with Ezra highlighting that mimicry is the >>>>>>> present and dominating state-of-affairs for AI art, but that there are >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> who are pushing to create something we can more honestly call >>>>>>> generative. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MJ2D9uCLLA&t=2374s&ab_channel=NewYorkTimesPodcasts >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> ____________________________________________ >>> CEO Founder, Simtable.com >>> [email protected] >>> >>> Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab >>> [email protected] >>> >>> mobile: (505)577-5828 >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > ____________________________________________ > CEO Founder, Simtable.com > [email protected] > > Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab > [email protected] > > mobile: (505)577-5828 >
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