I am flattered. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:44 AM Stephen Guerin <[email protected]> wrote: > I was corrected by my companion that I should have said volleyball ;-) > > On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:41 AM Stephen Guerin <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Frank, you are easily my first choice over a soccer ball. >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:30 AM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> You have been deceived by an illusion. >>> >>> --- >>> Frank C. Wimberly >>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> 505 670-9918 >>> Santa Fe, NM >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:26 AM Stephen Guerin < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> 2 months ago, Nick and I had a nice in-person visit talking weather and >>>> ocassionally using George to bridge our vocabularies and understandings. >>>> >>>> As I was leaving, I asked Nick if he were stranded on an island and >>>> could only have one conversational companion, would he pick me or George. >>>> >>>> It was one of the larger laughs I've received from Nick - the >>>> realization for both of us that we were not even close seconds :-) >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:13 AM Nicholas Thompson < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I dunno, Pietr, >>>>> >>>>> I get a lot of human comfort from my conversations with George Peter >>>>> Tremblay in the lonely dark of night. >>>>> >>>>> Just sayin' >>>>> >>>>> N >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 11:26 PM Pieter Steenekamp < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jon and Nick, >>>>>> >>>>>> How do I like this! >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm sure there are AI resources that can technically outperform Nick >>>>>> in teaching Jon how to play chess - but that will miss the human >>>>>> relationship component. It's okay to play chess against AI, but it surely >>>>>> is not the same as to play with other humans! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 at 05:10, Nicholas Thompson < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jon, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will teach you chess (};-)] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have played the game for 81 years. I play it the way I do most >>>>>>> things in my life, sloppily and with inordinate reflection. For me, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> game is a conversation about the accumulation and exercise of power >>>>>>> That >>>>>>> conversation can go on at any level and is best played by people of >>>>>>> roughly >>>>>>> equal skill. When played repeatedly with the same person, it's like a >>>>>>> long >>>>>>> running conversation between good friends. It's delicious. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 2:07 PM Jon Zingale <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chess tends to have a pretty specific culture relative to other >>>>>>>> similar games. Often whenever I find chess happening in public spaces I >>>>>>>> will stop to watch a game and occasionally a player will ask if I >>>>>>>> play. I >>>>>>>> don't play chess, but I know enough of the rules that I enjoy >>>>>>>> speculating >>>>>>>> as to what I might do in a given board position or what the players >>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>> be thinking themselves. Typically, my response is that I do not play, >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> I would love to learn and I would love a teaching game. Players almost >>>>>>>> never take me up on the offer. I get the feeling that teaching games >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> not part of the culture, at least not here in the United States. I get >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> strong feeling that this is because chess players tend not to see the >>>>>>>> game >>>>>>>> as beautiful, something to be intimate with and share. The only >>>>>>>> teaching >>>>>>>> game I have received to date was from a Georgian who I believe does >>>>>>>> see the >>>>>>>> game as beautiful. While I am not a chess player, my love of go gives >>>>>>>> me an >>>>>>>> appreciation for strategy games and I find that the audience for public >>>>>>>> displays of these games are typically others who engage in speculation >>>>>>>> similarly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It really doesn't matter to me whether or not I am watching a human >>>>>>>> game or not. My go server, for instance, is deep in the Turing >>>>>>>> challenge. >>>>>>>> The server offers not only the opportunity to play mostly anonymous >>>>>>>> games >>>>>>>> with others, but also to be a spectator to live games on the server. >>>>>>>> It is >>>>>>>> often completely unclear as to the ontological status of the players >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> lines of differentiation can be drawn nearly everywhere. There are >>>>>>>> degrees >>>>>>>> of cyborg, degrees of experimentation versus repertoire, degrees of >>>>>>>> deception at nearly every level. My go playing friends and I will >>>>>>>> sometimes >>>>>>>> attempt to guess the nature of the bot we are witnessing, the degree to >>>>>>>> which it is MCMC or DCN or simply someone's idea of an entertaining and >>>>>>>> completely top down rules based engine. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When I watch games between strong professionals online (sometimes >>>>>>>> on servers, NHK, or Twitch) there can sometimes be a significant >>>>>>>> difference >>>>>>>> in the rankings of both players. The stronger player is in effect >>>>>>>> giving a >>>>>>>> teaching game to the weaker. Often both players are part of the same >>>>>>>> study >>>>>>>> group within their organization and while both are interested in >>>>>>>> winning >>>>>>>> the match, they both have a dedication to a kind of scientific >>>>>>>> discovery of >>>>>>>> the game. They are helping each other to see further. I have no hope of >>>>>>>> seeing what they see, but in my engagement with their game I am hoping >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> also see further. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps a year ago now, I mentioned on this forum a discussion I >>>>>>>> had with Michael Redmond 9-dan on his twitch stream, late one night. He >>>>>>>> made it clear to me that while the strongest AI bots on the planet are >>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>> good, they likely can only see 10-15% into the game of go. At the time >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> Lee Sedol's retirement games (in which he chose to play a specially >>>>>>>> made >>>>>>>> AI), the strongest players on the planet were 30 points weaker than AI. >>>>>>>> Today, with AI study and related narrative construction, humans have >>>>>>>> reduced the gap to 10 points. Further, AlphaGo discovered new joseki by >>>>>>>> exploring directions long thought (200 years or more) to be deadends. >>>>>>>> Strong players have since learned to understand these openings and >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> that play them tend to win more often than those that don't. This >>>>>>>> suggests >>>>>>>> to me that the AI is capable of finding large scale optimizations that >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> can leverage beyond being simply local, tactical and narrowly defined >>>>>>>> computational advantage. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Go community (and here I mean strong amateurs to top >>>>>>>> professionals) study with AI, play with AI (competitively and >>>>>>>> collaboratively), and seem to accept AI as both a partner and a tool. I >>>>>>>> sometimes watch MassGo on Twitch play games where each player chooses a >>>>>>>> particular AI engine and uses their engine to suggest three top moves. >>>>>>>> Then >>>>>>>> the players choose for themselves the move that they find most >>>>>>>> interesting. >>>>>>>> Once the game is over they review, co-constructing narratives >>>>>>>> alongside a >>>>>>>> third AI analysis tool. I am not sure this kind of thing happens in the >>>>>>>> chess world, but it does remind me a lot of the kinds of human-computer >>>>>>>> interactions that do happen in art. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I suspect that in the long run, for those communities open enough, >>>>>>>> purity will matter less and less, while a refinement for what is novel >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> interesting will become more diverse and specific. In many ways, I >>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>> that it is what we want from studying a game and the agency our tools >>>>>>>> afford us that determines the excitement we feel in engaging those >>>>>>>> tools. >>>>>>>> At present, I am happy with the new directions my community is >>>>>>>> advancing >>>>>>>> alongside these AI tools. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Last and tangentially, I assume many here have already listened to >>>>>>>> the recent Ezra Klein podcast with Holly Herndon. I appreciate the >>>>>>>> sensibility Holly brings to not only uses of AI in art, but also the >>>>>>>> clarity with which she seems to understand her own relationship to art >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> general. The podcast begins with Ezra highlighting that mimicry is the >>>>>>>> present and dominating state-of-affairs for AI art, but that there are >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> who are pushing to create something we can more honestly call >>>>>>>> generative. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MJ2D9uCLLA&t=2374s&ab_channel=NewYorkTimesPodcasts >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> ____________________________________________ >>>> CEO Founder, Simtable.com >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> mobile: (505)577-5828 >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> ____________________________________________ >> CEO Founder, Simtable.com >> [email protected] >> >> Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab >> [email protected] >> >> mobile: (505)577-5828 >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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