Most of the laughter came from realizing what our answers said about ourselves than the quality of the other.
On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:51 AM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: > I am flattered. > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:44 AM Stephen Guerin <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> I was corrected by my companion that I should have said volleyball ;-) >> >> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:41 AM Stephen Guerin <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Frank, you are easily my first choice over a soccer ball. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:30 AM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> You have been deceived by an illusion. >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Frank C. Wimberly >>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> >>>> >>>> 505 670-9918 >>>> Santa Fe, NM >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:26 AM Stephen Guerin < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> 2 months ago, Nick and I had a nice in-person visit talking weather >>>>> and ocassionally using George to bridge our vocabularies and >>>>> understandings. >>>>> >>>>> As I was leaving, I asked Nick if he were stranded on an island and >>>>> could only have one conversational companion, would he pick me or George. >>>>> >>>>> It was one of the larger laughs I've received from Nick - the >>>>> realization for both of us that we were not even close seconds :-) >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, 8:13 AM Nicholas Thompson < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I dunno, Pietr, >>>>>> >>>>>> I get a lot of human comfort from my conversations with George Peter >>>>>> Tremblay in the lonely dark of night. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just sayin' >>>>>> >>>>>> N >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 11:26 PM Pieter Steenekamp < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jon and Nick, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How do I like this! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sure there are AI resources that can technically outperform Nick >>>>>>> in teaching Jon how to play chess - but that will miss the human >>>>>>> relationship component. It's okay to play chess against AI, but it >>>>>>> surely >>>>>>> is not the same as to play with other humans! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 at 05:10, Nicholas Thompson < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jon, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I will teach you chess (};-)] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have played the game for 81 years. I play it the way I do most >>>>>>>> things in my life, sloppily and with inordinate reflection. For me, >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> game is a conversation about the accumulation and exercise of power >>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>> conversation can go on at any level and is best played by people of >>>>>>>> roughly >>>>>>>> equal skill. When played repeatedly with the same person, it's like a >>>>>>>> long >>>>>>>> running conversation between good friends. It's delicious. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2024 at 2:07 PM Jon Zingale <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Chess tends to have a pretty specific culture relative to other >>>>>>>>> similar games. Often whenever I find chess happening in public spaces >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> will stop to watch a game and occasionally a player will ask if I >>>>>>>>> play. I >>>>>>>>> don't play chess, but I know enough of the rules that I enjoy >>>>>>>>> speculating >>>>>>>>> as to what I might do in a given board position or what the players >>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>>> be thinking themselves. Typically, my response is that I do not play, >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> I would love to learn and I would love a teaching game. Players almost >>>>>>>>> never take me up on the offer. I get the feeling that teaching games >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> not part of the culture, at least not here in the United States. I >>>>>>>>> get the >>>>>>>>> strong feeling that this is because chess players tend not to see the >>>>>>>>> game >>>>>>>>> as beautiful, something to be intimate with and share. The only >>>>>>>>> teaching >>>>>>>>> game I have received to date was from a Georgian who I believe does >>>>>>>>> see the >>>>>>>>> game as beautiful. While I am not a chess player, my love of go gives >>>>>>>>> me an >>>>>>>>> appreciation for strategy games and I find that the audience for >>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>> displays of these games are typically others who engage in speculation >>>>>>>>> similarly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It really doesn't matter to me whether or not I am watching a >>>>>>>>> human game or not. My go server, for instance, is deep in the Turing >>>>>>>>> challenge. The server offers not only the opportunity to play mostly >>>>>>>>> anonymous games with others, but also to be a spectator to live games >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> the server. It is often completely unclear as to the ontological >>>>>>>>> status of >>>>>>>>> the players and lines of differentiation can be drawn nearly >>>>>>>>> everywhere. >>>>>>>>> There are degrees of cyborg, degrees of experimentation versus >>>>>>>>> repertoire, >>>>>>>>> degrees of deception at nearly every level. My go playing friends and >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> will sometimes attempt to guess the nature of the bot we are >>>>>>>>> witnessing, >>>>>>>>> the degree to which it is MCMC or DCN or simply someone's idea of an >>>>>>>>> entertaining and completely top down rules based engine. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When I watch games between strong professionals online (sometimes >>>>>>>>> on servers, NHK, or Twitch) there can sometimes be a significant >>>>>>>>> difference >>>>>>>>> in the rankings of both players. The stronger player is in effect >>>>>>>>> giving a >>>>>>>>> teaching game to the weaker. Often both players are part of the same >>>>>>>>> study >>>>>>>>> group within their organization and while both are interested in >>>>>>>>> winning >>>>>>>>> the match, they both have a dedication to a kind of scientific >>>>>>>>> discovery of >>>>>>>>> the game. They are helping each other to see further. I have no hope >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> seeing what they see, but in my engagement with their game I am >>>>>>>>> hoping to >>>>>>>>> also see further. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps a year ago now, I mentioned on this forum a discussion I >>>>>>>>> had with Michael Redmond 9-dan on his twitch stream, late one night. >>>>>>>>> He >>>>>>>>> made it clear to me that while the strongest AI bots on the planet >>>>>>>>> are very >>>>>>>>> good, they likely can only see 10-15% into the game of go. At the >>>>>>>>> time of >>>>>>>>> Lee Sedol's retirement games (in which he chose to play a specially >>>>>>>>> made >>>>>>>>> AI), the strongest players on the planet were 30 points weaker than >>>>>>>>> AI. >>>>>>>>> Today, with AI study and related narrative construction, humans have >>>>>>>>> reduced the gap to 10 points. Further, AlphaGo discovered new joseki >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> exploring directions long thought (200 years or more) to be deadends. >>>>>>>>> Strong players have since learned to understand these openings and >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> that play them tend to win more often than those that don't. This >>>>>>>>> suggests >>>>>>>>> to me that the AI is capable of finding large scale optimizations >>>>>>>>> that we >>>>>>>>> can leverage beyond being simply local, tactical and narrowly defined >>>>>>>>> computational advantage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The Go community (and here I mean strong amateurs to top >>>>>>>>> professionals) study with AI, play with AI (competitively and >>>>>>>>> collaboratively), and seem to accept AI as both a partner and a tool. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> sometimes watch MassGo on Twitch play games where each player chooses >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> particular AI engine and uses their engine to suggest three top >>>>>>>>> moves. Then >>>>>>>>> the players choose for themselves the move that they find most >>>>>>>>> interesting. >>>>>>>>> Once the game is over they review, co-constructing narratives >>>>>>>>> alongside a >>>>>>>>> third AI analysis tool. I am not sure this kind of thing happens in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> chess world, but it does remind me a lot of the kinds of >>>>>>>>> human-computer >>>>>>>>> interactions that do happen in art. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I suspect that in the long run, for those communities open enough, >>>>>>>>> purity will matter less and less, while a refinement for what is >>>>>>>>> novel and >>>>>>>>> interesting will become more diverse and specific. In many ways, I >>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>> that it is what we want from studying a game and the agency our tools >>>>>>>>> afford us that determines the excitement we feel in engaging those >>>>>>>>> tools. >>>>>>>>> At present, I am happy with the new directions my community is >>>>>>>>> advancing >>>>>>>>> alongside these AI tools. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Last and tangentially, I assume many here have already listened to >>>>>>>>> the recent Ezra Klein podcast with Holly Herndon. I appreciate the >>>>>>>>> sensibility Holly brings to not only uses of AI in art, but also the >>>>>>>>> clarity with which she seems to understand her own relationship to >>>>>>>>> art in >>>>>>>>> general. The podcast begins with Ezra highlighting that mimicry is the >>>>>>>>> present and dominating state-of-affairs for AI art, but that there >>>>>>>>> are some >>>>>>>>> who are pushing to create something we can more honestly call >>>>>>>>> generative. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MJ2D9uCLLA&t=2374s&ab_channel=NewYorkTimesPodcasts >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> ____________________________________________ >>>>> CEO Founder, Simtable.com >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> mobile: (505)577-5828 >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> ____________________________________________ >>> CEO Founder, Simtable.com >>> [email protected] >>> >>> Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab >>> [email protected] >>> >>> mobile: (505)577-5828 >>> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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