I lived through half of WW2. Thanks for reminding me if my imminent passing. It is humbling.
Think of two of T's recent opinions: that he should be King and that he manages the US and the larger world. Those suggest that his ultimate goal is to be King of the World. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Tue, Apr 29, 2025, 10:25 PM Santafe <[email protected]> wrote: > Yeah; I don’t think it’s right that we get dealt out of our own game. > > More complicated than that, and most of the people with the power to take > big actions are also simplistic thinkers outside their One Thing (whatever > it is). > > I think there are insights in the End Times Fascism article that Merle > sent around, about what they _intend_ to do that underpins their choices. > But those people are very simplistic in thinking about ecology, including > the ecologies of the economy and the society. They have read too much > scifi. They think they can oppress all of the people all of the time, to > an arbitrary degree, and somehow it will just all keep going. I think it > is because they have lived in a world where it has all just kept going > before now, but that was for reasons they didn’t care to learn about and so > don’t understand or even recognize. And none of us really “understand” > them. That’s why there just “are” good times and bad times, and our agency > matters, but it is not clear we should think we control the causation. > > Ted Chiang also had part of it right, in that this isn’t a new gig. It’s > the same old corporate monopolist thinking re-termed. But see previous > point: the corporate monopolists are feasible as parasites on a structure > that sort of hangs together, but left to their own preferences, they don’t > support enough dimensions of it to make a long-term stable system. > > Jochen brushed against it a few days ago with his contrast of emotion and > reason as motivators. I was thinking about replying on the spot but > decided what I had to say was too shallow, and so didn’t. But I would have > said, yeah, I don’t mind that old saw as a kind of ancient framing for > immediate causes. But I think “emotion as the driver” is actually true all > the time everywhere. Damasio (it’s so not-the-cool-kids to refer to > Damasio, I know, but I am not one of the cool kids) adduces the picture of > “mind” as deliberation presenting memory and imagination to the affect to > be responded to with “toward” or “away” impulses. To Jochen I would have > opined that one of the important things that is different now is a matter > of view about how the world works. Anne Applebaum is good on this, though > very hawkish and to be handled with caution. I think she is right when she > says that Putin’s point in doing _everything_ illegal in Ukraine is, above > and beyond any aims in Ukraine, to assert that he is now beyond the reach > of any law. And the mob in the U.S. has an element of that. Oppressive > violence has mostly been outside their yard for 80 years now, and the > people who lived through WWII are almost all dead. So some people start to > accumulate some aggressive power, and think “the world is full of fat > sheep; we can just take everything”. Of course that isn’t what has ever > happened before, nor what will happen this time. They will make mistakes, > their corruption and incompetence will undermine the sources of their own > power, and in those gaps (and anyway) various groups here and there will > decide to fight back and some of them will be effective. The world will > re-arrange into a posture of everywhere-all-the-time aggression of any > against any, so that the aggression starts to stalemate but the resources > put into it, and the destruction caused by it, create a downward spiral of > misery that engulfs everybody. At some point it exhaust enough people that > the argument “you know; we don’t _have_ to be doing this” gets some > traction. But in the U.S. right now, the mob is not starving and too full > of themselves, and they all want to be Putin. (trump the only actual > Pinnochio; he wants to be a real dictator; the others want smaller or more > local facsimiles of that.) So I would say the diff is not emotion v. > reason, but an altered and wrong perception of how the world works. > > I think Einstein had at least an intuition for the ecological complexity > in his aphorism: I know not with what weapons the next war will be fought, > but the one after that will be fought with sticks and stones. He too, of > course, could not have understood economy and society and ecology — none of > us is close — but I think that intuition looks in the right direction when > the people who believe themselves to be masters of what is going on have it > all spiral out of their grasp, and get a lesson (which most of them will > never learn from in any case) that the world is a lot bigger than they are. > > Eric > > > > On Apr 30, 2025, at 11:25, steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > thanks... I saw the self-referential loop connection... I've got > Roanhorse's short story on my stack now and the details will probably help > me get it (even) better. Glad to know others are appreciating the likes > of Roanhorse' work. I appreciate your referencing this particular work of > hers, I'm surprised I'd missed it since it was yet more broadly acclaimed > than her novel. > > I do think there is a realistic possibility that we will somehow get fully > dealt out of our own game in pretty short order.. I don't know the term > for this, I read Bostrom's book on Superintelligence before the current AI > craze exploded and can't remember if he had any terms more appropriate to > this than mere "alignment". > On 4/29/25 6:09 PM, Santafe wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > Toward the end of Glen’s post, he was commenting on how the LLMs that he > (the post’s narrator) thought were participating in a scenario of his > design end up displacing him by being the actual dictators of the scenario, > and replace him not only as designer but as participant entirely. So he > goes to live under a bridge like the characters Suttree visits. > > Marcus’s clip about the prompts at the bottom of GTP’s Svejk-like service > were in a similar spirit, +/- how close any of these resonances is to a > particular story like AIE. > > Eric > > > > On Apr 30, 2025, at 8:11, steve smith <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Eric - > > I have read Roanhorse's post-Apocalyptic *Trail of Lightning*... and > tripped over the controversy over the subtle/complicated claims of Tribal > identity and cultural appropriation. I didn't read more of her work > because after this novel she veered further into *fantasy* which is not my > genre-of-choice so much. The description of this short story (very > highly heralded) would seem to suggest significant irony regarding the > criticism she drew for her subsequent novel? > > For the PostModernists (or adjacent) among us, I wonder if this whole > tangle isn't very PoMo with her simultaneous inhabitation and critique of > systems of representation? Did Marcus response go full PoMo as well? > > All this aside, can you elaborate the relevance of why you injected this > into this thread at this point? Stylistic similarity to Glen's > allegorical character study of obnoxious little green men as LLM? (or > vice-versa?). The little green men, very superficially reminded me of > Spielberg's *Gremlins*? > > - Steve > On 4/29/25 2:41 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Keeping with superdeterminism, I like am pleased to see suggested > questions at the bottom of George. > When it truly has omniscience, I will be able to simply click on the > suggested question and I will be unnecessary. > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> <[email protected]> *On > Behalf Of *Santafe > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 29, 2025 12:50 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <[email protected]> <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the tropospheree > > Written in 2017? > > <image001.jpg> > Welcome to Your Authentic Indian Experience by Rebecca Roanhorse > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.apexbookcompany.com%2fa%2fblog%2fapex-magazine%2fpost%2fwelcome-to-your-authentic-indian-experience%3fsrsltid%3dAfmBOorMb_5eH-Npx7pQHM6zhsiVwcD0uFKkQdsfM2irMp0ut5cJefWc&c=E,1,HAKOPXGfJkuufKKT42w5FMFpVDi973f_-QKX--lc2XIQPv5IjKHwFWQzVDjqmVo31LYOmIjncjem6Q3x89Z00o7SyqLfxngiHtNUzG190g,,&typo=1> > apexbookcompany.com > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.apexbookcompany.com%2fa%2fblog%2fapex-magazine%2fpost%2fwelcome-to-your-authentic-indian-experience%3fsrsltid%3dAfmBOorMb_5eH-Npx7pQHM6zhsiVwcD0uFKkQdsfM2irMp0ut5cJefWc&c=E,1,UMlbLo9kq6po1OhmGznX2h4YpUAj7WNaS00e1iJ7OtJ3iJdEeaOWYtrnsYuWvV0yhQyUYOBFurJiOfC5ZDaYIxtzleDtUboOszIaQ64FxZyzvWCP1Q,,&typo=1> > > > > On Apr 29, 2025, at 22:04, glen <[email protected]> wrote: > > More like if little green creatures came into my kitchen to cook up some > stinky fish ... and then leave the kitchen all messy for me to clean up ... > the whole house stinking of fish for days ... until they show up again just > when it stopped stinking. And as time goes on, they're going to show up > more often ... not merely to stink up the house with fish, but to > re-landscape the yard, paint the house ugly colors, paint garish murals on > all the inside walls, swap out my truck for a "truck" from Elno, and > replace the beer in my fridge with fscking *seltzer*. > > And they'll eventually get on my keyboard and start doing "work" for my > clients ... work the clients didn't ask for and don't want ... until they > convince them they do want it ... then the little green creatures will > evict me and I'll go live under a bridge. > > On 4/28/25 10:14 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > I know. If small green bipedal creatures landed on earth and started > tending to yardwork would that also be a disappointment? > They’ve failed to trim my tall hedge, so curse them! > *From:*Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson > *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2025 9:44 AM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the tropospheree > Hi Marcus, > I find that George's indulgence with bad metaphor very useful. > I also find amazing his ability to grasp the gist of what I am asking. I > have essential tremor and a bad keyboard and still George almost always > gets the message. Siri will take any opportunity to misunderstand. > In this case, it was I, not George, who was cranking out the sloppy > metaphors, trying to find a way to convey just how thin the atmosphere is. > I was hoping Saran wrap thin, but that appears to be an order of magnitude > too far. > Am I reading this wrong? people often talk about LLM's as if they are > /disappointed/ in them, as if there is something they SHOULD do that they > aren't doing. Do you have any idea what the disappointment might be?: What > is the world hankering for that they don't provide? > Nick > On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 9:37 PM Marcus Daniels <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected] > <[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > I wonder if the George makers 1) realized that people have an affinity > to iffy analogies and they should give the people what they want, or 2) the > LLM was prone to generating them so they just made it a feature? > *From:*Friam <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected] > <[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]>>> *On > Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson > *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2025 8:12 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected] > <[email protected]%20%3cmailto:[email protected]>>> > *Subject:* [FRIAM] The comparative thickness of the tropospheree > George and I were looking for intuition pumps to help a reader imagine > how very thin the troposphere is. 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