I remember where I was when I saw Torvalds’ first Linux release. I started downloading pretty much immediately and looking for a PC to sacrifice. It was hardly capitalist hype.
From: Friam <[email protected]> on behalf of glen <[email protected]> Date: Monday, November 17, 2025 at 8:54 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: The coming AI crash-worse than the Dot Com stock collapse? Exactly. That's Chris' basic argument. Even his point about fscking Twitter. To argue that it's "running just as well as it did" seems a bit discordant. But at some altitude, he's right. It's just as much of a toxic wasteland as it was before. Every time it crosses my gaze, I wonder why people still use it ... or bluesky, or reddit, or <arbitrary-tag>. My experiments with Cline have just about ended. I've decided to avoid it. It works great with Claude (and some others), but not with gpt-oss or codestral. Both of those work fine if *I* manage the prompting. Chris also mentions linux, which I've been using as my daily driver since ~1995 (?) ... IDK, maybe I was mostly using ultrix & minix in '95. But sporadically, as with the Windows 11 update breaking recovery, all the dorks get all riled up and talk about linux finally being ready for the desktop. [sigh] The fact is that we're no smarter than rats or birds who'll fill our nests with whatever stupid little shiny thing the capitalists bother to hype. On 11/17/25 8:21 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The first example that comes to mind are malls. Malls aren't needed now so > many of them are closing. > Some people see something bad about that. I see something good about that: > Ruts get erased and new opportunities arise. Power gets redistributed. > We're between cycles of exploitation and exploration, and there's some > adaptation that is required. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2025 8:02 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: The coming AI crash-worse than the Dot Com stock > collapse? > > But Chris' argument isn't really about AI. Chris is as guilty of preemptive > registration as the others. Short-term markets distort everything. The task > is to free up the terms coercively bound by the grifters and marketeers. Once > the terms are unbound, we can discover which formalisms fit and which don't. > > If we're charitable, Chris is right that *something* is amiss. The > disagreement is about *what* is amiss. Same as it Ever Was. > > On 11/17/25 7:45 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> But what ARE these investments right now? It seems to me they are well >> established companies: Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, and Google. NVIDIA has >> existed and will exist should AI revenue dry up, just like it outlasted >> Ethereum mining. >> >> The new players aren’t yet public companies. OpenAI has a longer path to >> profitability, but Anthropic (technical users) is already making good >> progress @ $7B. AI has already penetrated education and will likely spread >> more. People will become dependent on it like they are dependent on cars. >> >> *From: *Friam <[email protected]> on behalf of Prof David West >> <[email protected]> >> *Date: *Monday, November 17, 2025 at 5:14 AM >> *To: *[email protected] <[email protected]> >> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: The coming AI crash-worse than the Dot Com stock >> collapse? >> >> Marcus and Jon are not incorrect. I do see a problem that they do not, the >> fact that the vast majority of users/adopters of AI are dramatically less >> technologically compentent than either of these gentlemen. The manager that >> is positive that AI will eliminate most if not all of his human employees, >> the student using an LLM to "cheat," the social media addicts taken with the >> latest AI fad bots, etc. etc. almost certainly will become disillusioned and >> turn away from AI. >> >> Perhaps more importantly, all the capitalists who see immediate—not long >> term—return on investment are not going to remain invested. Lot's of other >> peoples money will be lost as a byproduct. >> >> The market of Jon Marcuses is not large enough to sustain all the current >> investment. Maybe one large AI company will survive (ala Amazon that lost >> tons of money for a long long time). >> >> davew >> >> On Sun, Nov 16, 2025, at 3:51 PM, Jon Zingale wrote: >> >> I mostly agree with Marcus' sentiment. The dot com analogy may be apt, but >> it also smells too easy an analog. I find the K-shaped AI adoption to be >> bizarre. Personally, I do not believe LLMs, nor any particular architecture, >> to be the be-all-end-all. I suspect we will see a transition away from >> throwing money at developing the most general form and a move toward more >> idiosyncratic instantiations. For instance, I continue to think that >> Deepmind did meaningful work going the RL path with AlphaGo/Atari games and >> it has yet to come to my attention what happens when Transformers attempt to >> replicate these successes. Almost every LLM I have met is really really bad >> at go. This said, AI in their current form, and from this perspective, has >> been here for a decade. Some have adopted it and use it to surprising >> effect, others treat LLMs as nothing more than a robust database querying >> language. What people do with it and how they perceive it will undoubtedly >> have an impact. In the >> meantime, I am excited to see what happens as programmers learn to use >> formal type theories as pidgins and LLMs become more amenable to >> compositionality. > -- ¡sıɹƎ ןıɐH ⊥ ɐןןǝdoɹ ǝ uǝןƃ ὅτε oi μὲν ἄλλοι κύνες τοὺς ἐχϑροὺς δάκνουσιν, ἐγὰ δὲ τοὺς φίλους, ἵνα σώσω. .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. 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