Are all invitations coercions???? Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University [email protected] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
On Tue, Nov 18, 2025 at 7:57 AM glen <[email protected]> wrote: > Sorry, by Vocal Grooming, I mean this < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grooming,_Gossip_and_the_Evolution_of_Language> > not merely "vocal". [⛧] > > Your defense of gridding the garden reminded me of road trips where you'd > run across a tree farm or orchard where all the trees are perfectly lined > up ... nauseating ... maybe akin to trypophobia, some deeply ingrained > (false?) registration of toxicity. It also reminded me of Trump's claim > that Finland rakes the forest. Granted, I recognize the satisfaction of > Engineering, making the world in your image. My first real sense of that > was the aircraft factory I got to walk through at Lockheed to get to the > campus nurse for my drug tests. Watching all those robots do things like > shaving aluminum blocks was transformative. Feynman's "what I can't create, > I don't understand", ALife, and biomimicry all argue for a fuzzy boundary > between science and engineering. I'm sure there are Dork tests out there > similar to OCEAN that might ask whether you get in the flow more by staring > at lichen or desoldering capacitors. > > But it feels a bit like the built environment has hijacked "wonder". I > have a Quine atom tattooed on my left hand. And it's a beautiful concept. > But thinking about it's uniqueness under different systems feels very > different from, say, watching a batch of baby spiders spread out to > discover the world. I expect that the dopamine circuits being exercised are > different. Tech like AI, social media, gooning, etc. seems akin to alcohol > or heroin. It hijacks your pleasure centers such that the rest of the world > turns gray and boring. Conversing with a sycophant, even with the veneer > prompt of "be argumentative", who never ghosts you (unless Cloudflare > fails!), never has its own agenda trying to coerce you into their domain > (Hi Nick), never dismisses your idea as a complete waste of time, etc. is a > kind of hijacking ... very similar to professionally produced pornography > or Hollywood movies where every woman is a bombshell and every man has a > six-pack. Pffft. Gimme real sociality over parasociality any day. I've > never really had a comfort zone and I'm not trying to find one now that I'm > almost dead. > > Of course, we've tread this ground. There's a difference between factory > farms and .... what was it? ... "husbandry"? "permaculture"? IDRemember. > > > > [⛧] However, cf Social tension after grooming in wild Japanese macaques > (Macaca fuscata yakui) is sex specific and sensitive to social > relationships. https://doi.org/10.1002/ajp.23664 > > On 11/17/25 4:11 PM, Steve Smith wrote: > > > > On 11/17/25 2:34 pm, glen wrote: > >> There's a very real risk. > > > > guessing you are referring to the "entropy minimization strategy" > reference? > > > >> The itch the chatbots scratch is partly (mostly, imnsho) vocal > grooming. > > I don't know about vocal literally but perhaps if you mean "verbal" or > more generally "linguistic"? This is a significant component of the "bar > friend" mode I've referenced. Someone I can "rattle on with" and get a > variety of disagreeable agreements and vice-versa... at best exercising > social muscles with the main reward being the tiny bits of fatty protein I > find down in the fur to pop in my mouth and down my gullet. > >> But it's also partly co-construction/collaboration. I'm antipathetic to > the former. So I don't miss that part. But the 2nd part is critical. > Conversations with the chatbots *feel* to me like living in a planned > community ... i.e. flat-out yucky ... no stigmergy ... no graffiti ... no > crabs living in soup cans. > > It does remind me from time to time of those all-agreeable conversations > (some) sports fans and political-awfulizing gaggles do when we get > together... on a good day it feels like chatting with someone who really > does want to understand my point of view and (if encouraged to be > argumentative)help me explore the negative/complementary space I've > neglected. A little like the conversations I'd get stuck in when I went > to college with Jesus Freaks (the hippy/jesus looking ones, not the > overgroomed, back-from-mission versions). > >> In this case, no long-winded friend constantly polluting the air with > tangent after tangent. >8^D No bent threads. Etc. > > I resemble that comment! Just think of it as Performance/Graffiti Art? > >> I suppose if you want your world to be all grids and bullet points, > hyperreal veneer, then fine. Have your chatbot. > > I rarely need help bulleting/gridding my unruly garden, but it is nice > to have a plow and seeder that normalizes the planting grid (a little) in > spite of being more of a one-straw-revolution kinda guy. My garden art is > more edward-scissorhands than Disney but ... not. a forest either? > >> But the world's looking a bit grim to those of us who prefer the > forest to Disney World. And if you run across someone who can't tell the > difference between a forest and Disney World ... well, IDK ... that's > "uncanny" to me ... like talking to a sociopath. > > Maybe I have a fetish for drawing the inner sociopath out in people? Or > just recognizing it. Maybe not sociopathic but more socio-divergent, but > not the performative kind, the deeply ideosyncratic, unselfconscious > kind... like the roadrunner who seems to be trying to join my small herd of > 6 chickens. I hope she's teaching them some anti-wiley-T-Coyote tricks... > on that note, I'd better go run them into their coop before they freak out > over the northern lights again? > >> > >> On 11/17/25 10:41 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > >>> I don't even know if I will send my response to this thread, I've come > to delete most of my "usual" offerings without sending, some without > finishing, others without starting. Some kind of entropy-minimization > strategy on "y'all's" side of my Markov Blanket? > >>> > >>> Lots of rich stuff here. I don't think I disagree with any sentiment > here (can they ALL be compatible?). Tom's original (implied) question is > probably as much about "should those of us with fat ETF portfolios switch > their mix from high-performing AI-fueled to some other place with better > risk/reward ratios?" as it is about "is there even a 'there there' in the > AI cascade of new affordances and competencies being offered (hyped) by > 'the market'. But maybe they are fundamentally the same question in this > highly human-conditioned manifold of intersubjective reality we inhabit > together? > >>> > >>> Obligatory anecdote: when a moved to my current property (2000), A > huge russian olive (50' tall, 3'diameter trunk, broad reaching branches) > hosted a huge magpie nest in one of the forking horizontal branches... > maybe 6-8' long made of branches from all over the property (area) and many > other elements. It had a half-dozen babies in it when I first came to > review the property but by the time we moved in, they had fledged and the > nest was fully abandoned (only for the season?) Within the year we took it > upon ourselves to remove the nest and found the myriad bits of interesting > detritus they had gathered. The structure of the nest seemed fully rhymed > and reasoned in spite of being opportunistic to the > branch/twig/grass/fur/??? at hand and wabi sabi in the extreme, but the > strange bright bits of yarn, string, fabric, bottle caps, broken glass, etc > cetera, were much more arcane/occult-to-me. But nevertheless alliterated, > rhymed and likely reasoned. As did our own > >>> slow picking-apart of the structure with the help of Jays, Packrats, > and the weather which had it's own uses for these "objects of desire"? > >>> > >>> Within 3 years West Nile flared up the Rio Grande, killing (most > notably, but not exclusively) Magpies. Even now, 20 years later, the > populations have barely begun to recover in a small way, probably migrated > back down from the Chama/Rio-Grande headwaters and environs? This > anecdote could tangent into the (very few) people I know of who contracted > (and one died) of West Nile during that time, and the cascade of > influences/effects that had on the lives of the people I know, but except > for a vague "where did all the Magpies go?" I hardly registered the > *devastating* effect it had on the Magpies (and likely many other > corvids/birds in the region?). Or tangent to the "Rabbit Hemorhaggic > Fever Pandemic" which coincided with human's COVID 19 which devastated the > Jack and Cotton populations here (and many other regions globally)... > >>> > >>> This is probably an allegory or parable or something. Re:Cautionary > Tales starring NRA wankers - I did just (re) watch two Charlton Heston > classics from my "coming of age" era: "Soylent Green" and "Planet of the > Apes" but was spared (paywalls) from "Omega Man". I didn't tangent to > "Ben Hur" nor "Moses" for different reasons, but to quote Glen (who might > have been quoting David Byrne?): > >>> > >>> "Same as it ever was!" > >>> > >>> On 11/17/25 10:57 am, glen wrote: > >>>> That's the point. Some of us line our nests with robust things like > straw. Others line theirs with fantasies peddled by grifters and then > expect the rest of us to share our nests when theirs collapse. We will > *definitely* bail out the capitalists again ... and again ... and again, > even after/while they['re] deport[ing] us, abusing us, killing us, sending > us to kill foreigners, stealing our water to run their data centers, etc. > >>>> > >>>> We are the gift that keeps on giving. > >>>> > >>>> On 11/17/25 9:17 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >>>>> I remember where I was when I saw Torvalds’ first Linux release. I > started downloading pretty much immediately and looking for a PC to > sacrifice. It was hardly capitalist hype. > >>>>> > >>>>> *From: *Friam <[email protected]> on behalf of glen < > [email protected]> > >>>>> *Date: *Monday, November 17, 2025 at 8:54 AM > >>>>> *To: *[email protected] <[email protected]> > >>>>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: The coming AI crash-worse than the Dot > Com stock collapse? > >>>>> > >>>>> Exactly. That's Chris' basic argument. Even his point about fscking > Twitter. To argue that it's "running just as well as it did" seems a bit > discordant. But at some altitude, he's right. It's just as much of a toxic > wasteland as it was before. Every time it crosses my gaze, I wonder why > people still use it ... or bluesky, or reddit, or <arbitrary-tag>. > >>>>> > >>>>> My experiments with Cline have just about ended. I've decided to > avoid it. It works great with Claude (and some others), but not with > gpt-oss or codestral. Both of those work fine if *I* manage the prompting. > Chris also mentions linux, which I've been using as my daily driver since > ~1995 (?) ... IDK, maybe I was mostly using ultrix & minix in '95. But > sporadically, as with the Windows 11 update breaking recovery, all the > dorks get all riled up and talk about linux finally being ready for the > desktop. [sigh] > >>>>> > >>>>> The fact is that we're no smarter than rats or birds who'll fill our > nests with whatever stupid little shiny thing the capitalists bother to > hype. > >>>>> > >>>>> On 11/17/25 8:21 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >>>>>> The first example that comes to mind are malls. Malls aren't > needed now so many of them are closing. > >>>>>> Some people see something bad about that. I see something good > about that: Ruts get erased and new opportunities arise. Power gets > redistributed. > >>>>>> We're between cycles of exploitation and exploration, and there's > some adaptation that is required. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2025 8:02 AM > >>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: The coming AI crash-worse than the Dot > Com stock collapse? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> But Chris' argument isn't really about AI. Chris is as guilty of > preemptive registration as the others. Short-term markets distort > everything. The task is to free up the terms coercively bound by the > grifters and marketeers. Once the terms are unbound, we can discover which > formalisms fit and which don't. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If we're charitable, Chris is right that *something* is amiss. The > disagreement is about *what* is amiss. Same as it Ever Was. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 11/17/25 7:45 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >>>>>>> But what ARE these investments right now? It seems to me they > are well established companies: Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, and Google. > NVIDIA has existed and will exist should AI revenue dry up, just like it > outlasted Ethereum mining. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The new players aren’t yet public companies. OpenAI has a longer > path to profitability, but Anthropic (technical users) is already making > good progress @ $7B. AI has already penetrated education and will likely > spread more. People will become dependent on it like they are dependent on > cars. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> *From: *Friam <[email protected]> on behalf of Prof David > West <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> *Date: *Monday, November 17, 2025 at 5:14 AM > >>>>>>> *To: *[email protected] <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: The coming AI crash-worse than the Dot > Com stock collapse? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Marcus and Jon are not incorrect. I do see a problem that they do > not, the fact that the vast majority of users/adopters of AI are > dramatically less technologically compentent than either of these > gentlemen. The manager that is positive that AI will eliminate most if not > all of his human employees, the student using an LLM to "cheat," the social > media addicts taken with the latest AI fad bots, etc. etc. almost certainly > will become disillusioned and turn away from AI. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Perhaps more importantly, all the capitalists who see > immediate—not long term—return on investment are not going to remain > invested. Lot's of other peoples money will be lost as a byproduct. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The market of Jon Marcuses is not large enough to sustain all the > current investment. Maybe one large AI company will survive (ala Amazon > that lost tons of money for a long long time). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> davew > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 16, 2025, at 3:51 PM, Jon Zingale wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I mostly agree with Marcus' sentiment. The dot com analogy > may be apt, but it also smells too easy an analog. I find the K-shaped AI > adoption to be bizarre. Personally, I do not believe LLMs, nor any > particular architecture, to be the be-all-end-all. I suspect we will see a > transition away from throwing money at developing the most general form and > a move toward more idiosyncratic instantiations. For instance, I continue > to think that Deepmind did meaningful work going the RL path with > AlphaGo/Atari games and it has yet to come to my attention what happens > when Transformers attempt to replicate these successes. Almost every LLM I > have met is really really bad at go. This said, AI in their current form, > and from this perspective, has been here for a decade. Some have adopted it > and use it to surprising effect, others treat LLMs as nothing more than a > robust database querying language. What people do with it and how they > perceive it will undoubtedly have an impact. > >>>>>>> In the > >>>>>>> meantime, I am excited to see what happens as programmers > learn to use formal type theories as pidgins and LLMs become more amenable > to compositionality. > >>>>>> > >>>> > > > -- > ¡sıɹƎ ןıɐH ⊥ ɐןןǝdoɹ ǝ uǝןƃ > ὅτε oi μὲν ἄλλοι κύνες τοὺς ἐχϑροὺς δάκνουσιν, ἐγὰ δὲ τοὺς φίλους, ἵνα > σώσω. > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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