It's not always been that way Mike. I can remember when there was more empathy and less warlike behavior. I think it was the coming of the drugs and the anger over Civil Rights and Vietnam when it all began to come apart. The dominant society lost their veneer of ideals and the underlings refused to exercise submission towards the dominant group. There has been a rise in sociopathy and psychopathology. I wonder if it's not chemical at its base. The result of rampant pollution of the environment, terrible pathogens in the air and pesticides in the food. It's only recently that the most acceptable standards for lead pollution were re registered as mind destroying, especially for the young.
REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michael Gurstein Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 4:23 PM To: 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION' Subject: Re: [Futurework] FW: [NetBehaviour] Narcissism normalised. I think there may be merit in the argument made on another list that narcissism was so common in the US and the basis of so much marketing and other commercial relationships that to call it a disorder would be to call into question some of the fundamental elements of the society and its dominant players... M -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of D and N Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 1:01 PM To: Keith Hudson; RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION,EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] FW: [NetBehaviour] Narcissism normalised. Back when DSM III first classified Narcissism as a personality disorder, Freudian psychologists who felt that a transference relationship with the therapist was an essential part of the healing process had little hope for someone with Narcissism to be able to benefit from psychotherapy. Not only did the client first have to recognize they had a debilitating problem, they would have to trust that someone else would have the expertise and "specialness" to help their very unique symptoms. Some psychoanalysts felt that the narcissistic disorder had to be treated first before the psychotherapy could be useful. Kohut felt that an analyst would have to first get into the client's skin before assessing the situation objectively. The likelihood is twofold with respect to removing it as a distinct personality disorder from DSM IV: They cannot get enough people with the disorder to come in for treatment, and those who have made it are so few, and their response to help so varied and statistically unsuccessful because psychotherapists haven't got the time to truly empathize with their clients before the objective assessment initial requirement. The disorder easily overlaps other personality disorder types, as do most of the other personality disorders, and if anyone now shows up bearing such similar symptoms, they will treated for Borderline, Avoidant, Dependent, or what have you. They will usually only show up for help if the other disorders symptoms are more dominant or debilitating, or if they've been referred by a government social agency. The problem, of course, is that the disorder almost inevitably results in an inability to function, let alone maintain relationships with significant others or friends. This leads to scornful dependency, depression, underlying emptiness, which in turn lead to dysfunctional lifestyles, physical ailments, both real and imagined, that get left untreated, and in general a spiraling towards other more debilitating psychological disorders. Not simply a matter of the human vanities. Treatment might occur in the more advanced stages once catastrophe culminates, but now the symtomology will simply be re-categorized. (continued below the following) >From Wikipedia: The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Di sorders> fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder> , defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder#Cluster_B_.28dramatic.2C_ emotional_or_erratic_disorders.29> ) as:[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-DS M-IV-TR-0> A pervasive pattern of grandiosity <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiosity> (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: 1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaggerates> achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) 2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love 3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) 4. Requires excessive admiration 5. Has a sense of entitlement <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement> , i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations 6. Is interpersonally exploitative <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitative> , i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends 7. Lacks empathy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy> : is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others 8. Is often envious <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envious> of others or believes others are envious of him or her 9. Shows arrogant <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrogant> , haughty behaviors or attitudes It is also a requirement of DSM-IV that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder#General_diagnostic_criter ia> . Diagnostic criteria (ICD-10) The World Health Organization <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization> 's ICD-10 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD-10> lists narcissistic personality disorder under (F <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD-10_Chapter_F> 60.8 <http://apps.who.int/classifications/apps/icd/icd10online/?gf60.htm+f608> ) Other specific personality disorders.[16] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-na rcissistic-15> It is a requirement of ICD-10 that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder#General_diagnostic_criter ia_2> . Theodore Millon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Millon> identified five subtypes of narcissist: Any individual narcissist may exhibit none or one of the following: * Unprincipled narcissist - including antisocial <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder> features. A charlatan <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlatan> - is a fraudulent, exploitative, deceptive and unscrupulous individual. * Amorous narcissist - including histrionic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder> features. The Don Juan <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan> or Casanova <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casanova_%28disambiguation%29> of our times - is erotic, exhibitionist <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibitionist> . * Compensatory narcissist - including negativistic (passive-aggressive <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive> ), avoidant <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder> features. * Elitist narcissist - variant of pure pattern. Corresponds to Wilhelm Reich's <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich> "phallic narcissistic" personality type. * Fanatic narcissist - including paranoid <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder> features. An individual whose self-esteem was severely arrested during childhood, who usually displays major paranoid tendencies, and who holds on to an illusion of omnipotence. These people are fighting delusions of insignificance and lost value, and trying to re-establish their self-esteem through grandiose fantasies and self-reinforcement. When unable to gain recognition of support from others, they take on the role of a heroic or worshipped person with a grandiose mission. Differential diagnosis The following conditions commonly coexist (comorbid) with narcissistic personality disorder: * Anorexia nervosa <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_nervosa> * Antisocial personality disorder <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder> * Borderline personality disorder <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder> * Dysthymia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysthymia> * Histrionic personality disorder <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder> * Hypomania <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypomania> * Major depressive disorder <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder> * Paranoid personality disorder <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder> [18] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-me ntalhealth-17> * Substance-related disorders <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance-related_disorders> (especially cocaine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine> ) Treatment Prominent clinical strategies are outlined by Heinz Kohut <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Kohut> , Stephen M. Johnson <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stephen_M._Johnson&action=edit&re dlink=1> and James F. Masterson <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_F._Masterson> , while Johns [9] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-Jo hns-8> discusses a continuum of severity and the kinds of therapy most effective in different cases. Schema Therapy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_Therapy> , a form of therapy developed by Jeffrey Young <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Young&action=edit&redlink =1> that integrates several therapeutic approaches (psychodynamic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychodynamic> , cognitive, behavioral etc.), also offers an approach for the treatment of NPD.[19] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-18 > It is unusual for people to seek therapy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapy> for NPD. Subconscious fears of exposure or inadequacy often cause defensive disdain of therapeutic processes.[20] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-Go l3-19> [21] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-20 > Pharmacotherapy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmacotherapy> is rarely effective. Epidemiology Lifetime prevalence is estimated at 1% in the general population and 2% to 16% in clinical populations.[3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-AM N-2> History and Examples The history of narcissism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_narcissism> predates the discovery of narcissistic personality disorder. The term "narcissistic personality structure" was introduced by Kernberg <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Kernberg> in 1967[22] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-21 > and "narcissistic personality disorder" first proposed by Heinz Kohut <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Kohut> in 1968.[23] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-22 > Proposed removal from DSM-5 The Personality and Personality Work Group has proposed[24] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-23 > eliminating NPD as a distinct disorder in DSM-5 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-5> [25] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-24 > as part of a major revamping of the diagnostic criteria for personality disorders, replacing a categorical with a dimensional approach based on the severity of dysfunctional personality trait domains, raising objections from some clinicians who characterize the new diagnostic system as an "unwieldy conglomeration of disparate models that cannot happily coexist" and may have limited usefulness in clinical practice.[26] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#cite_note-25 > hese behavioral patterns in personality disorders are typically associated with severe disturbances in the behavioral tendencies of an individual, usually involving several areas of the personality, and are nearly always associated with considerable personal and social disruption. Additionally, personality disorders are inflexible and pervasive across many situations, due in large part to the fact that such behavior is ego-syntonic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego-syntonic> (i.e. the patterns are consistent with the ego integrity <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_Integrity> of the individual) and are, therefore, perceived to be appropriate by that individual. This behavior can result in the client adopting maladaptive coping skills, which may lead to personal problems that induce extreme anxiety, distress and depression in clients.[4] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder#cite_note-3> The onset of these patterns of behavior can typically be traced back to late adolescence and the beginning of adulthood and, in rarer instances, childhood.[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder#cite_note-DSM-0> It is therefore unlikely that a diagnosis of personality disorder will be appropriate before the age of 16 or 17 years. General diagnostic guidelines applying to all personality disorders are presented below; supplementary descriptions are provided with each of the subtypes. Diagnosis of personality disorders can be very subjective; however, inflexible and pervasive behavioral patterns often cause serious personal and social difficulties, as well as a general functional impairment. Rigid and ongoing patterns of feeling, thinking and behavior are said to be caused by underlying belief systems and these systems are referred to as fixed fantasies or "dysfunctional schemata <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_%28psychology%29> " (Cognitive modules <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_module> ). On 1/9/2011 9:38 PM, Keith Hudson wrote: I don't think that narcissism (or egotism, vanity, conceit, selfishness) are socially deviant. They are part and parcel of human nature. We may be social mammals but we are also individuals underneath. A male, given the opportunity will have sex with the youngest and most beautiful woman he can find. A woman, looking for a parental partner will choose the most economically secure man she can conveniently find. Neither gives a great deal of thought to the longer tomorrow, only to their immediate needs. Narcissism , egotism, vanity, conceit, selfishness, among other "sins" were abstractions used as control devices by male religion organizers, not to mention the very real sufferings they've imposed on others throughout history. Keith As to what you have contributed above, socially unhealthy characteristics become deviant once their chronic manifestation results in dysfunction or disability. That suit-psychos keep their jobs, grow rich and get to pursue young prey does speak to societal acceptance of the pursuit of wealth, but it does not exempt them from personality disorder categorizations such as Antisocial Personality Disorder or Conduct Disorder. You still haven't provided your sources for presumptions about mating drives. Though one can find numerous examples of such behaviour, historical, cultural or otherwise, I strongly disagree with your insistence of these as patterns which wholly established our current state of evolution, or patterns reflecting today's emotional or sexual drives, or people's sense of security. Rather, they seem to describe societal matrimonial mistakes that most often lead to early divorce. Further, these patterns are commonly found in those seeking therapy for a variety of problems. That there are many such individuals should not lead anyone to conclude that all of society is thus driven, nor that it is the nature of humans to be thus inclined. Natalia Kuzmyn At 17:31 09/01/2011 -0800, Mike Gurstein wrote: -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of marc garrett Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:36 PM To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity Subject: [NetBehaviour] Narcissism normalised. Narcissism normalised. "Recently a NYTimes (http://is.gd/i3Cj9) article announced that narcissism is being deleted from the tomb for psychiatric disorders. Narcissism will not appear in the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (due out in 2013, and known as DSM-5). What happens when what was once morally objectionable behaviour ( egotism, vanity, conceit, selfishness) is no longer a 'legitimate' social deviance? Is narcissism now so deeply embedded in the collective psyche that it is now 'normal'? Is this the ultimate end of the neo-liberal exhalation of the individual, celebrity culture, a century's worth of advertising and the corporatisation of everyday life?" http://ecolabs.posterous.com/narcissism-normalized _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list [email protected] http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/2011/01/ _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
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