Selma, I guess its a question of how those values might be incorporated. If they were part of an imposed morality, ideology or theology, I don't think I'd buy them. If they arose by group consensus over a long period of living and working together, that would be another matter. That's probably what happened in the case of the Tikopians and other small hunting gathering groups, and perhaps many of the societies Ruth Benedict dealt with.
I doubt very much that it can happen in the case of societies comprised of several million individuals. I'm not saying that such societies operate without sound values or that their values couldn't be improved, but I would argue that those values have to be codified in a system of rights, laws and accessible courts to make them workable. Russians are not without values, but when I spent some time there in the mid-nineties, those values were not working at all well because the infrastructure which had made them practical had broken down. Ed Ed Weick 577 Melbourne Ave. Ottawa, ON, K2A 1W7 Canada Phone (613) 728 4630 Fax (613) 728 9382 > Well, Ed, > > I refuse to believe that we cannot create a social structure and develop a > culture that can incorporate values that are different from what we have. > > Of course we would not be able to do it exactly the way the Tikopians did; > that's not the point at all. The point is that if it is possible for human > beings to have an environment that allows and encourages values and > relationships that are *better* than what we have, then we should work to > find a way to incorporate those values and create that kind of an > environment in a way that will work for us. > > Ruth Benedict developed a continuum of societies with nonsynergistic > societies at one end of the pole and synergistic societies at the other end. > She based it on 700 societies. Synergistic societies are societies in which > when an individual does something that benefits her/him, that behavior also > benefits the group; likewise, when the group or community does something > that benefits them, that behavior also benefits the individual. > > If we do not believe that we can incorporate better values, of course there > is not chance we ever will. But before we can think about how to incorporate > them in our lives, we must know what they are. > > Selma > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Ray Evans Harrell" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Harry Pollard" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > "Charles Brass" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:35 AM > Subject: Re: [Futurework] The world of work > > > > Selma, Tikopia was one of the small south Pacific Islands devasted by a > > cyclone earlier this year. It's population was a little over a thousand. > I > > would be very skeptical that what is possible for a population that small > > would be possible for a population of many millions. In a family, or in a > > small community, we can perhaps achieve what the Tikopians are alleged to > > have achieved, but I would suggest that is probably about the limit. > > > > And I even have doubts about small communities. The small communities I > > lived in as a kid had their worthies and unworthies, their included and > > their excluded, those who were allowed and able to participate and those > who > > were not. > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Weick > > 577 Melbourne Ave. > > Ottawa, ON, K2A 1W7 > > Canada > > Phone (613) 728 4630 > > Fax (613) 728 9382 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > Harry responded to my comments about the capitalistic context causing > > > individuals to be treated as commodities. This seems an appropriate > place > > to > > > try to describe some of the ideas discussed by Dorothy Lee in the little > > > book I keep referring to *Freedom and Culture* > > > > > > You will see that this discussion is very closely related to a post I > sent > > > yesterday with a quote from David Bohm's *Wholeness and the Implicate > > Order* > > > and you will also see that it is directly related to the recent > discussion > > > on this list of who should clean the toilets. > > > > > > Lee has a chapter entitled 'The Joy of Work as Participation'. She > writes > > of > > > having made a discovery while she was working on a Christmas present for > > one > > > of her children on Christmas Eve when it was very late, she was > exhausted > > > and "I was working against time, wishing I were in bed." > > > > > > She also speaks of the conflicts she was experiencing at this time, > trying > > > to balance her work as an anthropologist with her responsibilities to > her > > > two children, her husband and her home. She felt guilty about neglecting > > her > > > professional work and needed to justify whatever she did for the family; > > > making a blanket for the doll crib of her 3-year-old daughter seemed > > > justifiable because she couldn't afford to buy it. > > > > > > "As I sewed this Christmas Eve, I was suddenly astonished to discover > that > > I > > > had started to add an entirely unpremeditated and unnecessary edging of > > > embroidery, and, simultaneously, I was aware of a deep enjoyment in what > I > > > was doing. It was a feeling that had nothing to do with the pleasure the > > > work would give to my daughter on the morrow; it had nothing to do with > a > > > sense of achievement, or of virtue in duty accomplished. And I knew that > I > > > had never liked to embroider. There was no justification for my work; > yet > > it > > > was the source of such a deep satisfaction, that the late hour and my > > > fatigue had ceased to exist for me. > > > > > > At this moment of discovery, I knew that I was experiencing what it > meant > > to > > > be a social being, not merely Dorothy Lee, an individual; I knew that I > > had > > > truly become a mother, a wife, a neighbor, a teacher. I realized that > > some > > > boundary had disappeared, so that I was working in a social medium; that > I > > > was not working for the future pleasure of a distant daughter, but > rather > > > within a relationship unaffected by temporality or physical absence. > What > > > gave meaning to my work was the medium in which I was working-the medium > > of > > > love, in a broad sense. So far, my rationalization and justification of > my > > > work had obscured this meaning, had cut me off from my own social > context. > > > It suddently became clear to me that it did not matter whether I was > > > scrubbing the kitchen floor or darning stockings or zipping up > snowsuits; > > > these all had meaning, not in themselves, but in terms of the situation > of > > > which they were a part. They contained social value because they > > implemented > > > the value of the social situation. > > > > > > This was a tremendous discovery for me, illuminating in a flash my > > > experience and my thinking. My mind went immediately to the Tikopia, > about > > > whom I had been reading, and I said to myself, 'This is the way the > > Tikopia > > > work.' I had been puzzled about the motivating forces in the life of the > > > Tikopia. These were people who were without organized leadership in > work, > > > yet who carried out large undertakings. And without any authority to > > impose > > > legislation and mete out punishment, the business of the village was > > carried > > > out and law and order were maintained. Raymond Firth, the ethnographer, > > > answering the unspoken quesitons of western readers, spoke of > obligations, > > > duty, fear of adverse opinion, as motivations. I did not like his choice > > of > > > words, because he spoke of the obligation to perform unpleasant tasks, > for > > > example, and yet the situations he described brimmed with joy. Now I saw > > > that the Tikopia did not need external incentives. > > > > > > This was all very well, but when I came to examine my discovery, I could > > not > > > explain it in any rational or acceptable way. My society did not > structure > > > working situations as occasions which contained their own satisfaction; > > and > > > it assumed the existence of aggregates or collections of indiividuals, > > not > > > of a social continuum. I had learned to believe in the existence of a > > > distinct self, relating itself externally to work as a means to an end, > > with > > > external incentives and external rewards. yet it was obvious that if I > got > > > satsisfaction from participating in a situation, there must be some > > medium, > > > some continuum, within which this participation can take place, If my > > family > > > and I were aspects of one whole; there must be some positive > apprehension > > of > > > a continuity which made me an aspect of my family, not a separate > member; > > it > > > was not enough to say that my physical being and my sensory experience > did > > > not in themselves prescribe the limits of the self." > > > > > > She goes on to explore the meaning of self among the Tikopia; I'll leave > > > that for another time. > > > > > > I would just ask the members of this list if they have ever experienced > > > anything similar to what Lee describes as she was working on that > blanket. > > I > > > know I have and I have felt it as a gift of enormous proportions; > mostly, > > in > > > our society, it occurs in spite of the social and economic environment, > > not > > > because of it. But I strongly believe that it is possible to stucture a > > > society and to develop cultural values that make this kind of experience > > > possible and common for everyone. > > > > Selma, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harry: > > > When was the labor of individuals not bought and sold. > > > > > > > > It seems to me this was always the case in Europe. So to blame > > capitalism > > > > merely shifts focus from the real problem. It wasn't true when there > was > > > > plenty of free land available in North America. But that didn't last > > long > > > > and soon there was no alternative but to work for what one could get - > > > > which as Ricardo shrewdly noted moved downward toward subsistence. > > > > > > > > This is the case now. It is hidden now by all kinds of welfare > > > > distributions. The social and political sciences spend their energies > on > > > > how much welfare will not be too much, but no-one seems to be > > > investigating > > > > why welfare is necessary. > > > > > > > > But, it's not capitalism that is the issue. This is just the latest > > > > manifestation of the same old problem that has kept the peoples of > all > > > > countries in penury for centuries. > > > > > > > > Harry > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Selma wrote: > > > > > > > > >Ray, > > > > > > > > > >I have been convinced, for many decades now, that Marx and some that > > > > >followed him were correct when they argued that, in a capitalistic > > > system, > > > > >where the labor of individuals is bought and sold, those individuals > > > thereby > > > > >become commodities that are bought and sold. In such a society the > > > general > > > > >consciousness becomes one of people being commodities and therefore, > > the > > > > >kind of connection you are talking about and the spirituality I have > > been > > > > >talking about are not possible. > > > > > > > > > >I am thinking, in particular, of Erich Fromm's arguments in *To Have > or > > > To > > > > >Be*. > > > > > > > > > >Selma > > > > > > > > > > > > ****************************** > > > > Harry Pollard > > > > Henry George School of LA > > > > Box 655 > > > > Tujunga CA 91042 > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Tel: (818) 352-4141 > > > > Fax: (818) 353-2242 > > > > ******************************* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > > Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
