Harry, So if someone comes into your house and declares in another language that it is unoccupied and all of their relatives come and occupy it and kill 92% of the your relatives, the original owners, they shouldn't be held accountable? That isn't rape and pillage. Perhaps you should call it Hunter/Gatherer. It has continued with the same process up into the 21st century and is the reason that the head of the Department of Interior is now held in contempt of court. The murder of the wealthy oil owners of the Osage puts Sadaam to shame except it was everyone doing it and not just one leader. It's easy to find blame it is difficult to forgive but then that is a problem all over.
When Europeans are so forgiving, such as the Serbs, the Northern Irish, the Scots, the Christians of the Jews, the Sicilians, the Greeks, the Turks, everyone of the European Nations of the Gypsies, then I will consider what you say but remember I know people who are still winning the Presidency of the US by refighting the Civil War from the other side and who are blatently stirring up racial hatred in order to win elections. Get real Harry. Learn your history. You might start with the Spanish Rapartimiento and continue through the murder for slaves and intrigue spread by the British that was worthy of a Sultan's Court. This was not a virgin wilderness but a widow's house. Rape and pillage was the rule right up into the 20th century when Indians were finally not allowed to be sold for slaves, 38 years after the Blacks were freed. You read and approved of that 1491 article, how could you then arrive at this place? "It don't compute." REH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Charles Brass" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] The world of work > At 10:15 AM 2/5/2003 -0500, Ray Evans Harrell wrote: > > >Harry said: > > > Selma, > > > > > > When was the labor of individuals not bought and sold. > > > > > > It seems to me this was always the case in Europe. > > > >So to blame capitalism > > > merely shifts focus from the real problem. It wasn't true when there was > > > plenty of free land available in North America. > > > >Free land? Since when is rape and pillage free? > > What do you mean, Ray? Sounds like prejudice to me. Most immigrants to > North America were struggling to make a life in the enormous area that > awaited them. > > To blame them all for "rape and pillage" is like blaming the whole present > black population for the 52% of US murders that are committed by blacks. > > > > But that didn't last long > > > and soon there was no alternative but to work for what one could get - > > > which as Ricardo shrewdly noted moved downward toward subsistence. > > > > > >This is strange to me. On the one hand your next statements sound like > >an old fashioned idealist then you talk about freedom and then you write > >as if the problem is that our social machines are wrong so we can't be > >fixed. Machines are a poor model for the human psyche and what you like > >takes away from the Artists of the country. If it takes away from one > >group over another it doesn't work. > > It isn't the "social machines" that are wrong (whatever they are). When all > the land is taken up (not necessarily used, or occupied) there is no > alternative wage for the poor to enjoy. So, willy nilly, they must take > what the employer is pleased to give them. > > When there is free land available, enough people will use it to create an > urban labor shortage - and wages will rise. This has happened in history. > However, as soon as land is all held, there is no alternative and we are > soon providing welfare so the destitute can make their gutters more > comfortable. > > > > >Ray > > > > > > > > This is the case now. It is hidden now by all kinds of welfare > > > distributions. The social and political sciences spend their energies on > > > how much welfare will not be too much, but no-one seems to be > > investigating > > > why welfare is necessary. > > > > > > But, it's not capitalism that is the issue. This is just the latest > > > manifestation of the same old problem that has kept the peoples of all > > > countries in penury for centuries. > > > > > > Harry > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > Selma wrote: > > > > > > >Ray, > > > > > > > >I have been convinced, for many decades now, that Marx and some that > > > >followed him were correct when they argued that, in a capitalistic system, > > > >where the labor of individuals is bought and sold, those individuals > > thereby > > > >become commodities that are bought and sold. In such a society the general > > > >consciousness becomes one of people being commodities and therefore, the > > > >kind of connection you are talking about and the spirituality I have been > > > >talking about are not possible. > > > > > > > >I am thinking, in particular, of Erich Fromm's arguments in *To Have or To > > > >Be*. > > > > > > > >Selma > > > ****************************** > Harry Pollard > Henry George School of LA > Box 655 > Tujunga CA 91042 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Tel: (818) 352-4141 > Fax: (818) 353-2242 > ******************************* > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
