Ray,
You say:
"I agree with your comments about race and descrimination but you have not convinced me that you have the knowledge to make such judgements about education and the antecedents that build it in children."
HARRY: I have been teaching for more than 50 years. I have been writing courses for kids from 7th grade to post-doctorate for more than 30 years. I have known high school teachers for more than 30 years and I've visited hundreds of schools across the country, as well as Alberta. By visiting, I don't mean popping in for an afternoon, but staying for as long as a week giving teacher Seminars, teaching individual teachers, working within departments. I've also made wonderful speeches to a variety of educational conferences. (Well, I thought they were wonderful.)
What do you want to know?
"Today we underpay teachers & cut off serious programs that build competancies while hyping educational junk food like Edison and the Wall Street Retail Journal Gang."
HARRY: I'm sure there are places - particularly in country locations where teachers are not paid well. Mostly they are paid very well.
In Southern California, they build up over $50,000 pretty quickly. Many of them use their somewhat limited hours at school to do other profitable things. One friend of mine owned and operated a "Creamery" - an ice cream shop that did excellent evening business in Old Pasadena.
Then, of course, there is summer school which adds to their income.
I'm not suggesting that teaching is easy - particularly with the student material they must contend with - but they are not ill-paid. Also, when they start, they are often paid too little. However, they can pick up (in California) another $5,000 a year for teaching "English as a Second Language" - a program that has been a monumental failure.
(One English speaking high school student enrolled in an ESL class so he could learn Spanish from this dual speaking program. Problem was no English was spoken. Only Spanish was used in this class to teach English to Hispanic students. He gave up on it.)
With present school financing, about $235,000 finances each classroom of 35 students for a year (based on national average). Let's give the teachers (say) $75,000. Do books, materials, furniture really cost $160,000 a year for 35 students over about 9 months? Particularly as books and furniture are amortized over many years?
You said:
"conventional English is rife with nouns and prejudicial statements"
No it isn't. It contains words which might be used prejudicially. But that is the invention of the user, not a fault of the language. Of course it is laced with nouns, but there are a lot of things to name. Also, the almost same things may attract several nouns each of which is used precisely to label something.
As you say, you may be a smart ass, but you are my favorite smart ass.
Blame an Englishman for being an Englishman? We should thank God that he got it right for once.
Harry
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Ray wrote:
Good Posts Harry,
I not only teach English but I'm giving a festival to focus on singing the great songs in English. Perhaps your comments about descrimination and prejudice are appropriate here.
In order to be descriminate you have to know. In order to be prejudiced you only have to know the conventional and judge individuals by the conventionality of their group. Music teaches you the difference between convention and originality. You folks complain incessantly about education and then preach a type of economics that undermines what you say you want. You then blame it on the government which is a Democracy. I think that is specious.
I agree with your comments about race and descrimination but you have not convinced me that you have the knowledge to make such judgements about education and the antecedents that build it in children. Today we underpay teachers & cut off serious programs that build competancies while hyping educational junk food like Edison and the Wall Street Retail Journal Gang. This group has starved our children putting them in a country environment and when they got the same dumb ideas (about cities and civilizations) as came from such countrified stimulation starved Aristocrats they act as if it is OK. Well it isn't OK.
The Artistocratic diet was terrible and they drew their intellectual and aesthetic strength from the underclasses that they slowly drew out in small numbers. Eventually they were overwhelmed. Time and boredom eventually changes everything including overwhelming military and monetary superiority.
What a pity if such promise as was held in this "circle of all nations" built upon the bones of my ancestors, was so hopeless that they couldn't last more than 300 years. It happened in Spain prior to the fifteenth century and it happened earlier at Palenque with Kukulkan and the Nonohualcans. It will happen again since we know little about either. The pity that the bright promises made in 1776 were overwhelmed with simple venality and laziness. That is the story of the Journey of Quetzalcoatl but who knows or studies such things?
Your comments about LA are always painful. I can remember when the "white" mining town on the reservation was about 20,000 miners in squalor equal to Brownsville and worse than Watts. They averaged one murder a week in a population considerably smaller and less colored than those areas of LA. And they did it on 3/2 beer. The state was dry until 1958. I know the town because my dad tamed it years later with sensible business practices and an unremitting committment to educating their children. He built the programs on the arts and everything else flowed from it.
Well, in language, lazy, conventional English is rife with nouns and prejudicial statements. The problems with Process oriented languages, on the other hand, at their worst are less able to understand the stability of the noun. Both types do have their dark sides and both are grounded in insanity or imbalance.
When FW ventured into ontological statements about things that were basically process, they made a philosophical and linguistic error based upon conventional English patterns. I blamed it on English using the same type of "judgment" (tit for tat) and everyone was offended. No one likes a mirror or a smart ass but that IS the first element of those who understand the history of their art in the West. To blame an Artist for being an Artist is sort of like me blaming an Englishman for being English don't you think? You should study that little Coyote that has been hiding in your backyard or stop killing all of those little spiders. They have a lot to teach. Especially to an old teacher who is on the cusp of renewal.
Remember Coyotl!
REH
----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] ) Hue and Cry on 'Whiteness Studies'
> Ray, > > English is a great language. Some of its users are not so great. > > The subtleties of the language are awesome. > > That many who erupt from 12 years of state education are not much past > "Dick and Jane walked the dog" is not a condemnation of the language, but a > mark of the terrible results of state education. > > Harry > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ray wrote: > > >Actually we should just give up this noun dominated language that puts > >people into objects and makes it impossible to define change and growth in > >humanity. English is out of date and regressive and that is the problem > >with America. What type of language is Chinese? With the kind of > >over-simplified drivel that I see here one should remember that the largest > >heads on the planet are the Osage and the Dinke. Both nomadic peoples who > >do very well when forced to settle down. I'm beginning to think Keith and > >Harry long for a rise in phrenology. Is that true boys. What did such > >"studies" in was finding that certain minorities in the world were much more > >physically endowed than the testors and immediately the science shriveled. > >Perhaps that is not all that shriveled in the process. > > > >REH > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Cc: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 6:20 AM > >Subject: Re: [Futurework] ) Hue and Cry on 'Whiteness Studies' > > > > > > > Harry, > > > > > > I think you're being much too cynical. I don't see why American state > > > universities shouldn't adopt affirmative action in the case of > > > Black-Americans. But if they do, they ought also to adopt negative action > > > in the case of Asian-Americans. The universities could then have a level > > > playing field for black, white or yellow. > > > > > > There's actually a quite simple method that would achieve fair results > > > without having to devise arbitrary points systems which compensate for > >poor > > > reading and writing ability. SATS results could be multiplied inversely > > > according to average racial IQs (or according to brain size). Thus all > > > Black-Americans' SATS score could be multiplied by 100/85, and > > > Asian-Americans' by 100/106 (or by 1347/1267 and 1347/1364 respectively by > > > using brain size). > > > > > > I think some sort of adjustment should also be applied in the case of > > > prosecutory zeal by the police and prison sentencing by the courts. In > > > England we have tens of thousands of West Indian and African-born UK > > > citizens in jail, but only a few hundred Indian and Pakistani UK citizens > > > and, disgracefully, no more than half-a-dozen Chinese-UK citizens. > > > > > > Incidentally, here's a little story from my better-half. She taught in one > > > of the "worst" schools in Bristol for over 20 years. She reckons that > > > there were only two sorts of children who never caused any trouble (and > > > were also consistently among the brightest). These were the children of > >the > > > fairground travellers and the Chinese. > > > > > > Keith Hudson > > > > > > At 21:19 24/06/2003 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > > >Selma, > > > > > > > >This is just part of the absolute nonsense that surrounds unimportant > > > >differences in complexion. How these people in universities can waste > > > >their time on this is beyond belief. > > > > > > > >Academe would be put to better use if they taught their students > >plumbing, > > > >or something else equally useful. > > > > > > > >Harry > > > >---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > >Selma wrote: > > > > > > > >>It is my not so humble opinion that this kind of thing is absolutely > > > >>essential if we are ever to honestly confront the issues of race in this > > > >>country. > > > >> > > > >>Selma > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Hue and Cry on 'Whiteness Studies' > > > >> > An Academic Field's Take on Race Stirs Interest and Anger > > > >> > By Darryl Fears > > > >> > > > > >> > Washington Post > > > >> > Friday, June 20, 2003; Page A01 > > > >> > > > > >> > AMHERST, Mass. -- Naomi Cairns was among the leaders in the privilege > > > >>walk, and > > > >> > she wasn't happy about it. > > > >> > > > > >> > The exercise, which recently involved Cairns and her classmates in a > > > >>course at > > > >> > the University of Massachusetts, had two simple rules: When the > >moderator > > > >>read > > > >> > a > > > >> > statement that applied to you, you stepped forward; if it didn't, you > > > >>stepped > > > >> > back. After the moderator asked if you were certain you could get a > >bank > > > >>loan > > > >> > whenever you wanted, Cairns thought, "Oh my God, here we go again," > >and > > > >>took > > > >> > yet > > > >> > another step forward. > > > >> > > > > >> > "You looked behind you and became really uncomfortable," said Cairns, > >a > > > >> > 24-year-old junior who stood at the front of the classroom with other > > > >>white > > > >> > students. Asian and black students she admired were near the back. > >"We all > > > >> > started together," she said, "and now were so separated." > > > >> > > > > >> > The privilege walk was part of a course in whiteness studies, a > > > >> > controversial and relatively new academic field that seeks to change > >how > > > >> > white people think about race. The field is based on a left-leaning > > > >> > interpretation of history by scholars who say the concept of race was > > > >> > created by a rich white European and American elite, and has been > >used to > > > >> > deny property, power and status to nonwhite groups for two centuries. > > > >> > > > > >> > Advocates of whiteness studies -- most of whom are white liberals who > >hope > > > >> > to dismantle notions of race -- believe that white Americans are so > > > >> > accustomed to being part of a privileged majority they do not see > > > >>themselves as > > > >> > part of a race. > > > >> > > > > >> > "Historically, it has been common to see whites as a people who don't > >have > > > >>a > > > >> > race, to see racial identity as something others have," said Howard > > > >>Winant, a > > > >> > white professor of sociology at the University of California at Santa > > > >>Barbara > > > >> > and a strong proponent of whiteness studies. "It's a great advance to > > > >>start > > > >> > looking at whiteness as a group." > > > >> > > > > >> > Winant said whiteness studies advocates must be careful not to paint > >white > > > >> > heritage with a broad brush, or stray from the historical record. > > > >> > Generalizations, he said, will only demonize whiteness. > > > >> > > > > >> > But opponents say whiteness studies has already done that. David > >Horowitz, > > > >>a > > > >> > conservative social critic who is white, said whiteness studies is > >leftist > > > >> > philosophy spiraling out of control. "Black studies celebrates > >blackness, > > > >> > Chicano studies celebrates Chicanos, women's studies celebrates > >women, and > > > >> > white > > > >> > studies attacks white people as evil," Horowitz said. > > > >> > > > > >> > "It's so evil that one author has called for the abolition of > >whiteness," > > > >>he > > > >> > said. "I have read their books, and it's just despicable." > > > >> > > > > >> > Whiteness studies, said Matthew Spalding, is "a derogatory name for > > > >>Western > > > >> > civilization." Its study is important only to those who think "black > > > >>studies > > > >> > and > > > >> > Chicano studies haven't gone far enough in removing the baggage of > > > >> > Anglo-European traditions," said Spalding, director of the Center for > > > >>American > > > >> > Studies at the Heritage Foundation. > > > >> > > > > >> > "The notion that you can get rid of a historical tradition as a way > >to > > > >> > further current . . . concerns strikes me as intellectually > >misleading," > > > >> > Spalding said. "It makes certain assumptions and looks for certain > > > >>outcomes. > > > >> > It's close-minded." > > > >> > > > > >> > Whiteness studies can be traced to the writings of black > >intellectuals > > > >>such as > > > >> > W.E.B. DuBois and James Baldwin, but the field did not coalesce until > > > >>liberal > > > >> > white scholars embraced it about eight years ago, according to some > >who > > > >>helped > > > >> > shape it. > > > >> > > > > >> > Now, despite widespread criticism and what some opponents view as > >major > > > >> > flaws in the curriculum, at least 30 institutions -- from Princeton > > > >> > University to the University of California at Los Angeles -- teach > >courses > > > >> > in whiteness studies. > > > >> > > > > >> > The courses are emerging at a pivotal time. Scientists have > >determined > > > >>that > > > >> > there is scant genetic distinction between races, and the 2000 Census > > > >>allowed > > > >> > residents to define themselves by multiple racial categories for the > >first > > > >> > time. > > > >> > Dozens of books, such as "The Invention of the White Race," "How the > >Irish > > > >> > Became White" and "Memoir of a Race Traitor," are standard reading > >for > > > >>people > > > >> > who study whiteness. Recently, the Public Broadcasting System aired a > > > >> > documentary titled "Race: The Power of an Illusion." > > > >> > > > > >> > "If you ask 10 people what is race, you're likely to get 10 different > > > >> > answers," said Larry Adelman, who conceived, produced and co-directed > >that > > > >> > documentary. "How many races would there be? Where did the idea come > > > >>from?" > > > >> > > > > >> > At U-Mass., those questions and others were raised in "The Social > > > >> > Construction of Whiteness and Women," one of two whiteness studies > >courses > > > >> > Cairns took last semester. > > > >> > Read and Discuss > > > >> > > > > >> > The students, about three-quarters of them white, slid into desks and > > > >> > unloaded giant book bags, which were stuffed with required reading. > >The > > > >> > books included Theodore Allen's "The Invention of the White Race: > >Racial > > > >> > Oppression and Social Control," which argues, in part, that the > >collection > > > >> > of European immigrants into a white race was a political act to > >control > > > >>the > > > >> > country. > > > >> > > > > >> > Arlene Avakian, the chairman of the U-Mass. women's studies > >department, > > > >>sat on > > > >> > a > > > >> > wide desk, let her legs dangle and asked the class to discuss the > >ideas of > > > >> > racial privilege, environmental comfort and social control. Not all > >of her > > > >> > students had taken part in the privilege walk -- it was conducted in > > > >>another > > > >> > course -- but many of them had. > > > >> > > > > >> > Winnie Chen, 22, the daughter of Chinese immigrants, said it pained > >her to > > > >> > deal with race every day when her white peers seemed to rarely think > >about > > > >> > it. She tried to discuss race with a white friend once, she said, but > >he > > > >> > felt ambushed. > > > >> > > > > >> > "He said I was pulling a Pearl Harbor on him," she said. "It is so > > > >>difficult > > > >> > for > > > >> > them to think there is another lens. He talked about Irish > >oppression. I > > > >>asked, > > > >> > 'Have you ever considered why you're no longer oppressed here when > >Asians, > > > >> > blacks and Hispanics still are?' " > > > >> > > > > >> > A white student raised her hand and said she and a friend had gone to > >a > > > >>hall > > > >> > reserved for black student affairs, and the friend said she didn't > >feel > > > >> > comfortable. > > > >> > > > > >> > Brandi-Ann Andrade, a 21-year-old junior who is black, rolled her > >eyes. > > > >>"So > > > >> > what?" she asked. "I never feel comfortable here. I'm a student at a > > > >>school > > > >> > where most people are white. The only time I feel comfortable is when > >I'm > > > >>at > > > >> > home." > > > >> > > > > >> > Dan Clason-Hook, 24, a white senior, said, "White students would > >never say > > > >> > that we own the campus, but [whites] feel they do." > > > >> > > > > >> > The desire to always feel comfortable in their skin is something > >white > > > >> > people feel entitled to, said Avakian, who is white. The dominant > >group > > > >> > wants to control its environment, to own it. > > > >> > > > > >> > The students listened without objection, but they don't always. > >Avakian > > > >>said > > > >> > two > > > >> > students in an earlier semester had challenged her, questioning why > >she > > > >>taught > > > >> > the course. After some discussion, Avakian recalled, they concluded > >her > > > >>reason > > > >> > was white guilt. > > > >> > > > > >> > Avakian dismissed that conclusion. "It's the suppressed history I'm > > > >> > interested in teaching," she said. "White people can't know ourselves > >and > > > >> > our country without knowing this history." > > > >> > > > > >> > Although whiteness studies teachers adopt different approaches for > > > >>different > > > >> > courses, they draw on the same reading of history. > > > >> > > > > >> > That reading traces the invention of race to the time and social > >class of > > > >> > Thomas Jefferson, who wrote in the late 18th century not only that > >"all > > > >>men are > > > >> > created equal" in the Declaration of Independence, but also this, > >from his > > > >> > "Notes on the State of Virginia": > > > >> > > > > >> > "I advance it, as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether > >originally a > > > >> > distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are > >inferior to > > > >> > the whites in the endowments both of body and mind." > > > >> > > > > >> > >From such sentiments, whiteness studies advocates say, race was > >invented, > > > >> > and the idea of white superiority was crucial to justifying slavery > >and, > > > >> > later, the dispossession of Native Americans, Hispanics and Asians. > > > >> > > > > >> > "Jefferson believed in majority rule, but what majority was he in?" > >said > > > >> > historian James O. Horton of George Washington University. "He wasn't > >in > > > >>the > > > >> > majority in terms of gender. He wasn't in the majority in terms of > >class. > > > >>The > > > >> > only majority he was in was race." > > > >> > > > > >> > Horton said poor white workers often joined black slaves and freemen > >in > > > >> > popular rebellions in the 18th century. For example, he said, Crispus > > > >> > Attucks, a black man, was among the first to die when an interracial > >mob > > > >> > confronted British soldiers in the "Boston Massacre," five years > >before > > > >>the > > > >> > American Revolution started. > > > >> > > > > >> > But something happened between that time and Andrew Jackson's > >presidency > > > >>in > > > >> > 1828, Horton said. "Property laws were struck down, allowing white > >people > > > >>at > > > >> > the > > > >> > bottom of society to vote based on race in 1807. At the same time > >that was > > > >> > done, > > > >> > race laws were put into its place. > > > >> > > > > >> > "There is this constant message hammered at poor white people," > >Horton > > > >>said. > > > >> > "You may be poor, you may have miserable lives right now, but . . . > >the > > > >>thing > > > >> > we > > > >> > want you to focus on is the fact that you are white." > > > >> > > > > >> > In the 19th and 20th centuries, "race science" was used by Supreme > >Court > > > >> > justices to deny rights, property and citizenship to various Asian > > > >> > immigrants. > > > >> > > > > >> > In the housing boom that followed World War II, black veterans were > >denied > > > >> > new federally backed mortgages that helped build white suburbs. > > > >> > > > > >> > Avakian said that if American history curriculums "told that story, > >this > > > >> > would be a different country." > > > >> > > > > >> > "Slavery and genocide coexist with democracy and freedom," she said, > >and > > > >> > that's what whiteness studies teaches. "President Andrew Jackson > >presided > > > >> > during the mass murder of Indians. If we knew in detail how slavery > > > >>existed > > > >> > alongside freedom, we would have to change the national narrative." > >After > > > >>Class > > > >> > > > > >> > Chen said Avakian's course made her more aware of how the sense of > > > >>belonging > > > >> > corresponds to skin color. "I would never not choose to be someone's > > > >>friend > > > >> > because they are white, but I think it's important to have friends of > > > >>color," > > > >> > she said. > > > >> > > > > >> > Jya Plavin, a 20-year-old sophomore who is white, said the course > >"was > > > >> > really, really hard . . . both personally and as a white person, > >because > > > >>you > > > >> > really want to take the focus off you and your whiteness." > > > >> > > > > >> > Clason-Hook said that the class was the only one he knew of that > > > >>explicitly > > > >> > spoke of whiteness, and that it helped him realize that "other > >classes, > > > >>like > > > >> > economics, politics and history, are about whiteness. They are > >written by > > > >>and > > > >> > are about white people." > > > >> > > > > >> > He said later that confronting whiteness, day to day, is challenging. > >"I > > > >>am > > > >> > racist. It's not on the surface, but it's in me. Day to day I hear > >racist > > > >> > comments, and people don't even know what they're saying." > > > >> > > > > >> > Andrade said she thought "the class was beneficial, because it brings > >to > > > >> > light that white people, too, are racialized." > > > >> > > > > >> > Thinking back on the class discussion a few days later, Andrade > >wondered: > > > >> > "In a culture that puts whiteness on top, what is blackness? When you > >look > > > >> > at whiteness, blackness is always in the negative." > > > >> > > > > >> > Cairns, who had sailed through the privilege walk, said whiteness > >studies > > > >> > helped her understand race a little better. "My social group has > >always > > > >>been > > > >> > white," she said. "I've noticed that, and I've started to look beyond > >my > > > >> > group."
**************************************************** Harry Pollard Henry George School of Social Science of Los Angeles Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042 Tel: (818) 352-4141 -- Fax: (818) 353-2242 http://home.attbi.com/~haledward ****************************************************
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