Harry,
When are you going to fully respond to what I sent you, to my
satisfaction? I don't recall signing up to be one of your students, yet
the possibility of a flow in conversation grows tedious, and learning
from one another even more so, when one is continuously
assaulted by the pathetically cynical questions you come up with
in response to well archived information.
Check out the $$$$$'s below for further enjoyment.
Natalia
----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Pollard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Darryl and Natalia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Karen Watters Cole
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Harry Pollard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Selma Singer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Futurework] Fw: Bigger Than Watergate!
> D & N,
>
> You said:
>
> NATALIA: "Some interesting remarks below on Harry's part. His e-mail to
me on
> July 8th, however, would rather contradict what he's stating here, in
> approach and content. Perhaps this is not unusual for him."
>
> HARRY: I would appreciate your telling me how I contradicted myself "in
> approach and content".
>
> You continued:
>
> NATALIA: "Indonesian and Asian workers, including children, who work for
> Nike earn 40 pence for every L100 sold of product. Some locations in those
> countries get as little as 72 pence a day, shifts 24 hours or longer, to
> work Nike, Adidas, Puma, Reebok, and live in disease-infested slums for
the
> privilege. In N. India, children hand stitch Mitre footballs for 14 pence
> per ball."
>
> HARRY: Why do they accept such terrible conditions All they need do is say
> "A pox on you" and work for better wages elsewhere. Don't understand your
> point.
$$$$$$Your comments to Karen, which you didn't include, that I was
referring to :
> > How can one be complacent about racism? How can one somehow, not notice
> >the
> > > millions who have recently died in Africa because of racism? How can
one
> >be
> > > complacent about it?
> >
$$$$$$ Where I went wrong was that I failed to remark upon your
miraculously evolved sense of compassion in just a few
days.
One day you say that the abused overseas workers should
say
to their capitalist oppressors who are taking advantage of
their
lack of options for survival by offering them bare
subsistence wages,
or as Brad put it on his web-site "slave-rental" wages, "A
pox on you!".
Then in no time, you are putting down complacency on
racist policies
in Africa. Do you not see that there is a distinctly
racist policy in what
the capitalists try and pass off as 'opportunity' for 3RD
world nations'
people? These are not two separate issues.
> You replied:
>
> NATALIA : ***An example of oppression, Harry. (And a number of other
> words of inconsequential propaganda including inevitably blather about
> "capitalism"..)
>
> HARRY: More than anything, this shows what happens when a question needs
to
> be answered, but cannot be by conditioned ideologues.
> I'll repeat the question. Why do they accept such terrible conditions
from
> Nike, Adidas, Puma, Reebok, and Mitre? All they need do is say "A pox on
> you" and work for better wages elsewhere.
>
> Don't run off a stream of propaganda Try to keep your overweening
> condescension under wraps and answer the question. It shouldn't be hard.
>
$$$$$ Doesn't your reply represent the propaganda of capitalism in its
coldest form?
Who is exhibiting condescension? Especially to the abused
workers?
Try it.
>
> You then went off in a rant that had little to do with anything. Came the
> following exchange. First your rant :
>
> > > NATALIA: "The wars and ensuing oppression
> > > resulting from this sector has and will continue to cause intense
> > > world fear, cause countless deaths and continuing deformities,
> > > ruin entire nations' economies and cultures, will leave behind
> > > millions of land mines, will exercise use of depleted uranium
> > > on civilians, bio/chem and atomic weapons will be used, and
> > > this is all corporate stuff, not a matter of defence! It affects
> > > the world adversely to the tune of 100%."
> > >
> > > HARRY: Terrible, terrible! What wars are these?
> >
> >NATALIA : ***Harry, does it hurt too much? Is this where you must resort
> > to common callousness to negate the reality of the price of
> > the comforts you so enjoy?
>
> HARRY: I thought that your rant indicated terrible things. So, I wanted to
> know what wars caused "countless deaths" "continuing deformities" ruin
> entire nation's economies and cultures" "leave millions of land mines"
"use
> depleted uranium on civilians" - then you began to wander as you didn't
> know how properly to include "bio/chem and atomic weapons".
>
> I must say, I doubt that you will answer anything. You fill paragraphs
with
> repetitious propaganda but it seems that when you copy it down, your
> sources don't give you anything to back up what you say.
$$$$$$ I thought mistakenly that you would have been inundated
with the specifics of the deleterious effects and affects
of
U.S. war involvement and initiative. I guess you never read
any thing untoward about Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia,
Nicaragua,
El Salvador, the Dominican Republic, Lebanon in '82,
Panama, Chile, Somalia, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan or Iraq X
2...
You will deny that the U.S. either:
got directly involved to protect their own interests or
supported the terrorists, dictators and even genocidists of
many of these
countries.
> Now try to answer the questions and we can proceed from there.
$$$$$$ We can't proceed. You need to do some investigation of your
own, and stop delegating to others to do your donkey work
for
you. I doubt you are so inclined because it might cause
you to
rethink a lot of what you've come to believe about this
world.
I find it hard to accept that you are playing devil's
advocate, are merely being sarcastic, or that you are so
ignorant
of the extent of corporate and particularly U.S.
government's
administrative greed. I find it a waste of time to
satisfy your sick
sense of humour. You will insist that you are being
serious, one
moment, and hoping that we can both learn something. I
now
insist that you are too often just looking for conflict
where there really should be none. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>
> Harry
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> Darryl and Natalia wrote:
>
> >Karen,
> >
> >Some interesting remarks below on Harry's part. His e-mail to me on
> >July 8th, however, would rather contradict what he's stating here, in
> >approach and content. Perhaps this is not unusual for him.
> >
> >By the way, that was a smashing compliment he paid you about
> >emulating both Darryl and I. Hope you called the Prozac police on him,
> >nonetheless.
> >
> >My ***'s preceded my responses copied below to Harry's words...
> >Alas, I too was a victim of Harry's personal mailer demon, and the full
> >response was probably only seen by the rest of you. No big.
> >
> >Keep up the fine work, Karen. Word is getting out, and though it can
> >seem insurmountable to many, and your intent can be disrupted and
> >distorted, there is a decided indignation, fears that are converting to
> >questions, and from there important steps can be negotiated. I'm
> >not suggesting that all will be healed, but truth is trickling out, and
> >that is encouragement. It also serves the conscience and humanity to
> >at least try.
> >
> >Natalia
> >
> >
> >---- Original Message -----
> >From: Harry Pollard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Karen Watters Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Harry Pollard
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Darryl and Natalia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
Selma
> >Singer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 12:03 PM
> >Subject: RE: [Futurework] Fw: Bigger Than Watergate!
> >
> >
> > > Karen,
> > >
> > > Don't shoot the messenger. I told it like it is.
> > >
> > > You said:
> > >
> > > KAREN: "Just because it exists does not mean we should accept
> > > poverty. Just because
> > > racism still exists does not mean we should be complacent about it."
> > >
> > > Henry George made a great speech on "The Crime of Poverty". I think it
is
> >a
> > > crime too, and never something to be accepted.
> > >
> > > The trouble with politicians and their cohorts is they have accepted
it.
> >So
> > > their attention is directed to making poverty a little more bearable
(it
> > > doesn't work well). So I suggest you learn about the "crime" and
> > > concentrate on ending it rather than alleviating it.
> > >
> > > But that's radical thinking - not suitable for Democratic or
Republican
> > > election headquarters.
> > >
> > > How can one be complacent about racism? How can one somehow, not
notice
> >the
> > > millions who have recently died in Africa because of racism? How can
one
> >be
> > > complacent about it?
> >
> > > NATALIA: "Indonesian and Asian workers, including children, who
work
> >for
> > > Nike earn 40 pence for every L100 sold of product. Some locations in
those
> > > countries get as little as 72 pence a day, shifts 24 hours or longer,
to
> > > work Nike, Adidas, Puma, Reebok, and live in disease-infested slums
for
> >the
> > > privilege. In N. India, children hand stitch Mitre footballs for 14
pence
> > > per ball."
> > >
> > > HARRY: Why do they accept such terrible conditions All they need do is
say
> > > "A pox on you" and work for better wages elsewhere. Don't understand
your
> > > point.
> > >
> > ***An example of oppression, Harry. There is no recourse in order to
> >survive, feed the family. Capitalism invests the least possible to reap
the
> >highest rewards. Slavery has not been eradicated, it's just been
> >redistributed
> >and disguised. Far more economical to keep the slaves where they cost the
> >least to employ.
> >
> > > NATALIA: "The wars and ensuing oppression
> > > resulting from this sector has and will continue to cause intense
> > > world fear, cause countless deaths and continuing deformities,
> > > ruin entire nations' economies and cultures, will leave behind
> > > millions of land mines, will exercise use of depleted uranium
> > > on civilians, bio/chem and atomic weapons will be used, and
> > > this is all corporate stuff, not a matter of defence! It affects
> > > the world adversely to the tune of 100%."
> > >
> > > HARRY: Terrible, terrible! What wars are these?
> >
> >***Harry, does it hurt too much? Is this where you must resort
> > to common callousness to negate the reality of the price of
> > the comforts you so enjoy?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > But, back to business You don't just climb a mountain. You examine it
> >first
> > > and get to know the lay of the land. Where are the best routes to the
top?
> > > What's the easiest at this time of year? Where are the dangers?
> > >
> > > In politics, the same is true. So, in my post I set out some of the
> > > problems that must be faced before climbing begins.
> > >
> > > Apparently we know what politicians can get up to with electronic
voting
> > > machines - so, I would think we can stop it. If it can't be stopped,
then
> > > they shouldn't be used.
> > >
> > > I must say smaller voting areas and pieces of paper looks far better
to
> >me.
> > >
> > > You said:
> > >
> > > KAREN: "By declaring all elections and politicians as crooked and/or
> > > self-serving,
> > > you encourage apathy and cynicism. This produces sheepish behavior in
> > > people (sheeple) who are then too timid or afraid to question, speak
up
> >and
> > > challenge - three things a healthy democracy cannot afford."
> > >
> > > HARRY: Honey, for heaven's sake don't emulate Darryl and Natalia. You
seem
> > > to be saying that people are not to be trusted with the truth. We must
> >make
> > > them think they are doing something worthwhile, or they won't do it.
> > > Apparently you wish to make them sheeple.
> > >
> > > If we hide unsettling facts from them, you believe they will be
encouraged
> > > "to question, speak up and challenge". Question, speak up and
challenge
> > > what? Things they don't know about?
> > >
> > > Would your interest be so high if the Democrats were the alleged
> >electronic
> > > culprits. If such a thing surfaced, would you put it down to a
Republican
> > > plot? This is a perennial problem with political advocates. Everything
> > > comes to them through a blue or red filter.
> > >
> > > If you want to do something about the system, you could scarcely do
better
> > > than join the proportional representation group. Unfortunately, this
would
> > > be opposed by most politicians, for they don't want:
> > >
> > > all votes to be worth the same value;
> > >
> > > effective pressure on them to keep their promises;
> > >
> > > voters enabled to choose between candidates of their own party;
> > >
> > > minority group candidates to be elected;
> > >
> > > unpopular opinions to get a voice.
> > >
> > > Join them and help. The best method is the Single Transferable Vote.
> > >
> > > I personally like the method suggested to me by some Danish Georgists
> > > several decades ago.
> > >
> > > Let's say 100,000 votes gives you a vote in Congress.
> > >
> > > There are no elections - or rather, elections are continuous.
> > >
> > > Electors can transfer their votes at any time by going to the post
office
> > > and making the change.
> > >
> > > If he gets 200,000 votes - he gets two votes in congress. Perhaps the
most
> > > votes that are allowed to count are 500,000 and five votes. If the
> > > representative doesn't do what he has promised, his vote support could
> > > begin to melt away. Below 100,000 and he is out of Congress.
> > >
> > > This means that a legislator answers immediately to his constituency,
> > > something rather nice.
> > >
> > > However, it isn't likely to happen. Proportional representation, on
the
> > > other hand, is definitely something that is possible. It's made some
gains
> > > in the US - I think that San Francisco may be considering a form of
it.
> > >
> > > Anyway, that's the way you start finding ways up the mountain. And,
> >believe
> > > me, Karen, the forces of good could do with someone like you to help
them
> > > scale the heights.
> > >
> > > But, if you insist the mountain doesn't exist, you'll never get to the
> >top.
> > >
> > > Harry
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Karen wrote:
> > >
> > > >Harry, if even a third of this story is true, then why should they
pay
> >for
> > > >people to vote when someone can make the switch, invalidate the date
and
> >or
> > > >time, and walk off with a memory card with hundreds if not thousands
of
> > > >votes on it, never to be counted? Or just program the machines to
fail
> >so
> > > >that there is confusion and incorrect voter registration data?
Aren't
> >you
> > > >just a teeny bit curious?
> > > >
> > > >By declaring all elections and politicians as crooked and/or
> >self-serving,
> > > >you encourage apathy and cynicism. This produces sheepish behavior
in
> > > >people (sheeple) who are then too timid or afraid to question, speak
up
> >and
> > > >challenge - three things a healthy democracy cannot afford.
> > > >
> > > >Just because it exists does not mean we should accept poverty. Just
> >because
> > > >racism still exists does not mean we should be complacent about it.
Just
> > > >because votes can be bought the old-fashioned way does not mean that
we
> > > >should turn a blind eye and ear to newfound ways of rigging
elections.
> > > >
> > > >As an old rabble-rouser, Harry, I'm surprised you aren't out there
> > > >agitating, asking barbed questions in someone's face and generally
asking
> > > >people to at least think for themselves. - KWC
> > > >Karen,
> > > >
> > > >The fact that we have a larger population does not prevent us having
> > > >smaller polling stations - something very much to be desired.
> > > >
> > > >The major problem with American elections is that most of the House
> > > >contests don't matter. Both parties have so gerrymandered the
districts
> > > >that one has to be a paedophiles or something to lose as an
incumbent.
> >So
> > > >the House election boils down to a couple of handfuls of seats.
> > > >
> > > >Also, elections are overwhelmingly won by the candidate with the most
> >money.
> > > >
> > > >So to be an incumbent House member, with its corollary of lots of
money
> > > >means a job for life - which is why term limits frightens them so
much.
> >If
> > > >you keep your nose clean and toe the line - be a team player - you'll
get
> > > >help with your re-election and be provided with many other perks from
a
> > > >first-class health service - probably the best in the US - to
lucrative
> > > >pensions that can be added to your lobbying job commissions when you
> >leave.
> > > >
> > > >Your vote is valuable and can be sold (surprisingly cheaply).
> > > >
> > > >There's the problem. Voting machines and suchlike are unimportant
when
> > > >compared with a system that from Cook County to Florida is manifestly
> > > >flawed.
> > > >
> > > >Harry
> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >Karen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >The point should be to distribute this kind of provocative
information
> >as
> > > > >widely as possible, look for any publication elsewhere, generate
> >letters to
> > > > >the editor and Congress. If the people who do these things believe
> >that no
> > > > >one is paying attention, as all the voters should be in a
democracy,
> >then
> > > > >they can continue to operate with confidence; if the system is
rigged,
> >why
> > > > >bother concealing your contempt for the little guy, the minority
voter,
> >the
> > > > >independents?
> > > > >
> > > > >If the system is rigged, why hide the arrogance of your policy's
intent
> >to
> > > > >permanently institute a class society based on wealth, making
education
> > > >more
> > > > >difficult for all but a few of the lower classes? Note that there
will
> >be
> > > > >ballot challenges to affirmative action by diehard activists who
are
> >angry
> > > > >with the Supreme Court and also Pres. Bush for signing it
(especially
> >since
> > > > >he seemed to endorse the opposite opinion previously).
> > > > >
> > > > >If the system is rigged, do you really have to be concerned about
> > > > >consequences of policy on political campaigns? Not really. You
simply
> > > > >remove those individuals who will receive too much negative
attention
> > > >during
> > > > >the political season, or who have "baggage" that might not survive
a
> > > > >congressional hearing, or whose loyalty is not established. Hence,
> >Whitman
> > > > >is gone, so is Ari Fleischer.
> > > > >
> > > > >There has always been some form of election fraud. Personally, I
like
> >the
> > > > >way the Canadians do it, with small polling stations so that paper
> >ballots
> > > > >can be tabulated and checked quickly. But we have a much larger
> > > >population.
> > > > >But until people are aware of the potential for abuse, and
motivated to
> > > > >safeguard their right to a free and untainted election, we should
not
> >be
> > > > >silent or complacent, even when sometimes the evidence is alarming,
> > > > >provocative or hard to procure. - KWC
> > >
> > >
> > > ****************************************************
> > > Harry Pollard
> > > Henry George School of Social Science of Los Angeles
> > > Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042
> > > Tel: (818) 352-4141 -- Fax: (818) 353-2242
> > > http://home.comcast.net/~haledward
> > > ****************************************************
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >----
> >
> >
> > >
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> > >
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> >
> >
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>
> ****************************************************
> Harry Pollard
> Henry George School of Social Science of Los Angeles
> Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042
> Tel: (818) 352-4141 -- Fax: (818) 353-2242
> http://home.comcast.net/~haledward
> ****************************************************
>
>
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