Khosla is a man that made money in IT and now invests in cleantech - eg gasification projects such as Range Fuels.
He might have indian ancesters. Thomas ________________________________________ Fra: [email protected] [[email protected]] på vegne af Anand Karve [[email protected]] Sendt: 11. juli 2011 06:12 Til: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren Dear Members, who is this Khosla, whose name crops up every now and then? I am curious because it is an Indian name. Yours A.D.Karve On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Thomas Koch <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Tom > > Ok - a bit more "fun" than my gasifier project - but apart from the hospital > it is more or less the same melody. > > Give Mr Khosla my warm regards. > > It is getting late here now and my bed is missing me. > > Best regards > > Thomas > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > Fra: [email protected] > [[email protected]] på vegne af > [email protected] [[email protected]] > Sendt: 10. juli 2011 21:42 > Til: [email protected] > Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren > > Dear Thomas Koch, > Ontario Hydro was calling the shots and my manager did not argue > with them because he was intimidated by them. During the course of the > works, I was burned and spent a month in the hospital recovering from > 30% total body 3rd degree burns. I was sedated for 2 weeks. When I > returned to work, I had the clarity of mind due to the sedation to stop > the project. In the period I was in the hospital, the contractor > building the system had spent $33,000 on electrical work which could > not be accounted for. It was a total rip-off. > It is true that the project was my responsibility, and it is also > true that the client can be wrong, and how to deal with this is the art > of project management. It is not taught in school, most folks don't > learn it which is the reason that they are technicians, and it is very > stressful, if one knows how to play poker well, can bluff without any > cards, then they will make a good manager. Perhaps the best poker > player in the biggest game of all time was Reagan when the bluffed > Gorbachev on SDI. > I have an invitation to call Kholsa and maybe I will this week. > Sincerely, > Leland T. "Tom" Taylor > President > Thermogenics Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Koch <[email protected]> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification > <[email protected]> > Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 12:22 pm > Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren > > Dear Tom > > I have had similar experinces - crashed with a 2,3 MWth 3 stage > gasifier for all sorts of reasons. > But at the end of the day there only one whom I can blame - and that is > myselves - mainly for being to enthusiastic and not carefull enough in > the first 25 % of the project. > > At a sales meeting arranged arranged by the Min of Foreign Affairs a > (smart) salesman selling smart metering participated. He was really > frustrated - he had been in this business for 7 month - seeeeeeven > month - and he had not recieved one order until now!!!!! > I told him that i have been in this business for 25 years and nor > recieved one oreder for one year. > > Yes I send a letter to Khosla - and got an ansver from one of his > assistants that did speak an other language than me. His money - his > decisions. > > Same thing with CHOREN - I had numerous discussions with several > customers that had identified our plug feedcr as an ideal feeding > device for a CHOREN plant - but at that stage they where all ready > running out of enthusiasm - at least I was not happy about their > answers - so nothing happend. > > But - i can rest asure you that here in Denmark it is not only > golddiggers that can loose commen sense and hundres on millions DKK ( > 1/5 in $). > Our 2 national 2 gen bioetanol from straw projects have just been > evaluated by Risoe. > INBICON - DONGs (100 % ovned by the danish state) project was evalauted > to "Calculations of the economy in the IBUS concept shows that the > production of bioethanol from straw would not be social welfare and > economic profitability. The extended economic analysis shows a > significant negative NPV for the project." (from google translate) > http://www.biopress.dk/projekter/kronologisk/5a4cbf0991b435ea988abbd69332184c > It it reported in English - but run it through Google translate and it > will give the overall picture if you want to se an example of how > taxmoney can off set common sense. > > The interesting question is now - can we use this experince to some > thing that is pointing more to the future the writing reports about > failed gasification projects? > > Best regards > > Thomas > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > Fra: [email protected] > [[email protected]] på vegne af > [email protected] [[email protected]] > Sendt: 10. juli 2011 19:37 > Til: [email protected] > Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren > > Dear Thomas Koch, > I presume that you tried to relay your views to Vinod Kholsa, the > founder of Sun Microsystems and some thing with AMD. All successful IT > types that have not a clue about energy projects. There was a speech > given to a group of high powered financial types at an energy > conference once by a wise person who asked the audience who had > operated a power plant, negotiated a PPA, done due diligence on a power > plant project and out of several hundred or so, only one or two raised > their hands. The rest were refugees from the IT world,looking for the > next gold mine. > I have had many experiences with even my own personnel about how > things need to be done to work right. The heavy duty power struggles > within Ontario Hydro between engineering groups within OHT were > legendary and resulted in the project having 200% overruns in time and > cost, ultimately failing due to OH's loss of several nuclear reactors > and being broken up, canceling the project. The damage to Thermogenics > was irreparable. Whatever can't go wrong will. > Sincerely, > Leland T. "Tom" Taylor > President > Thermogenics Inc. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Koch <[email protected]> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification > <[email protected]> > Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 8:35 pm > Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren > > I forgot a NOT - I did not see any evidence !!! > > ________________________________________ > Fra: Thomas Koch > Sendt: 10. juli 2011 04:32 > Til: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification > Emne: SV: [Gasification] What happened at Choren > > Dear Tom Taylor > > I did see any evidence that steel was developed at Range - I > interpreted as one of the arguments that was used to fool them selves > and maybe the investors also. > > I tried to communicate my views to the VC that provided the money to > Range - just to try to find out how they are thinking - but they did > not want to discus with me. > > Did Shell report reasons why they pulled out of CHOREN? > > Best regards > > Thomas > > > > ________________________________________ > Fra: [email protected] > [[email protected]] på vegne af > [email protected] [[email protected]] > Sendt: 9. juli 2011 22:17 > Til: [email protected] > Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren > > Dear Mr. Koch, > I certainly appreciate your insight to the management and > technical issues at both Range and Choren. You know that Shell pulled > out of Choren some time ago because of these reported reasons. > A few years ago our government used the language "too big to fail" > when it bailed out financial institutions. This is the same problem > with these large projects, they convince themselves that because they > have so much money that they couldn't fail. They also believed it and > made decisions accordingly. > I appreciate the information on Range's development of a special > steel. I wonder where it is now? it is also interesting to see that > serious, seasoned project managers are not in sight, but come from the > IT world (as did Range's financing). > Of course, when Farmland Industries hired Texaco to refit the > Coolwater (originally near Barstow, California) coal gasifier to > petcoke, they fired them after 6 months because they didn't do much > besides spend money. Farmland took over the work themselves and made it > work, but it drove them into bankruptcy. > There are a few consultants out there who can do a productive > contribution, but they have to be very, very carefully managed or else > they spend lot of your money. > Sincerely, > Leland T. "Tom" Taylor > President > Thermogenics Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Koch <[email protected]> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification > <[email protected]> > Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 11:54 am > Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren > > It is a very interesting question you raise. > > What can be learned from Range Fuels and from CHOREN > > I have visited both companies trying to help them feeding biomass into > their reactors and spend quit a lot of brain work on both. > > One common thing is that both did not answer simpel normal questions. > > I did not understand the energy balance on Range and the Mass balance > on CHOREN. > > And questions was ansvered by business development people. > > I remember a meeting at CHOREN where I asked about the low melting ash > components - where did they go and how did it work? > The business development manager started a long specialtive explanation > about how they washed it out of the char - after it had been taken out > of the pressurised enclosure - and then the char was put back into the > process with out these troublesome ash components. > My business development manager had $$$ in his eyes - imagine all the > feeders we could sell - (we counted 7 pressurised in and outlet on each > gasifier!!!!) if we could just focus on this problem instead of > discussing ash and other irrelevant issues. > At the site visit 2 of their engineers told me that they had tried to > draw the attention of the management to this problem with little > succes. > My imagination tells my that you can identify 50 similar issues at > CHOREN. > > Similar I had a discussion with a manager at RANGE - he had realised > that the complexity could potentially be a problem. He was a former > succesfull business man from Apple. > I tried to explain him the consequenses of thermal transient in a > startup situation when you have square hot geometries. He then > explained me that at Range they had invented a refractory steel that > could stand 100 degree higher temperatures than the most expensive > Haynes cobalt/steel alloy. I congratulated him with this invention and > predicted that he would be come a VERY rich man just by this singel > invention. > I dont think he understood one word of what I said to him. > > The lesson I have learned is that all projects my full fill 5 rules. > 1 First law of thermodynamics - Mass will not be made from nothing and > can not dissapear > 2 Second law of thermodynamics - No matter what you do you make a loss > :-) > 3 First law of money - Money will not be made from nothing but can > disappear > 4 Common sense mut be applied to all elements in the process. > 5 You can fool your selves but only others if you pay them their > salary. > > And making projects by consultants - FORGET IT!! > > Best regards > > Thomas Koch > > > > > ______________________________________ > Fra: [email protected] > [[email protected]] på vegne af > [email protected] [[email protected]] > Sendt: 9. juli 2011 17:32 > Til: [email protected] > Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren > > Dear Tom Miles and the list: > One thing that should be learned is that when there is a lot of > money around, the tendency is to hire a lot of folks and then the > pressure is on to burn money fast. I also see "financing issues with > start up of commercial plant" to read, too expensive, has technical > issues, vis a vis Range Fuels and others. This is a repeat of even the > Downdraft system from Grabowski under Syngas co. This was even > partially funded in the 80's by a group which had provided funding to > Thermogenics and the lead financier called me several years after > funding Syngas to say that i was right, it would fail. They decided to > not fund Thermogenics because of the lack of PhD's who could argue that > their process was better. Not having a degree made my arguments not > listened to. > The question arises as to what to do with a large staff which > initially does engineering work, and then when the design is completed, > what are they doing next until the design is completed and operational? > This is why to some extent, this work being done by consultants may be > better of a business structure. > Unfortunately, the financial world relies on degrees for results > which paves the way downhill. A multiple PhD in mathematics who was > Sandia National Laboratories' lead mathematician, with Stanford and > Caltech on his CV, had a saying on his door "A thermometer is not the > only thing with degrees and no brains". > The more of these large operations to hit the walls, the more > difficult the field will be to get serious project financing and move > forward. There are others slated to fail in near term from what I have > been hearing, high profile supposedly "successful commercial > operations". > Sincerely, > Leland T. "Tom" Taylor > President > Thermogenics Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dl <[email protected]> > To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification > <[email protected]> > Sent: Fri, Jul 8, 2011 4:43 pm > Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren > > http://www.choren.com/en/information-and-press/press-releases/ > > > Going into bankruptcy in Germany. > > > Dan Lacy > > The best way to compile inaccurate information that no one wants is to > make it up. > Scott Adams > > > > > On Jul 8, 2011, at 3:25 PM, "Tom Miles" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > This Google alert abut Choren should be on interest to anyone who has > follwoed biomass pyrolysis an dgiasification to syngas. See the Google > Alert link below. Tom News1 new result for gasifier What Happened > at Choren? > Consumer Energy Report > The gasifier would be scaled up from the pilot plant scale of 1 MW th > to 45 MW th . Shell's Fischer-Tropsch technology was being used in the > plant, ... > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/_______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Gasification mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: > http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ > -- *** Dr. A.D. Karve President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI) *Please change my email address in your records to: [email protected] * _______________________________________________ Gasification mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/ _______________________________________________ Gasification mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site: http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
