Jon,
Please see below...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon & Stacy Boone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Gecko] pictus inbreeding
> << Jon, not to criticize, but it seems that you really want to make a
> definitive statement here.>>
>
> Sorry for the confusion here. I thought that the meat of my statement was
> pretty clear " The short answer is, like David Lawrence said " there are
> problems inherent with inbreeding (ALMOST) anything!! It should be
avoided
> whenever possible." Which was quite similar in meaning in the last
> sentence of what you previously had replied to the list, below:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Neil Groginsky [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 9:57 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [Gecko] pictus inbreeding
>
> I find this question pretty interesting. I know with fish this is not so
> much of a problem, and in fact breeding a mother with an offspring is used
> to promote a certain feature. I think, however, that long-term inbreeding
> without bringing in new blood would probably result in birth defects.>>>
>
> I'm not sure what your points of disagreement are, other than somewhere
you
> might have perceived a definitive statement, when in fact I had admitted
> quite clearly that certain species of geckos had been inbred without any
> visible ill-effects. I myself have been left with no other alternative
but
To be very truthful and straightforward, I think I reacted, not so
much to the content, but to my reading of a tone, accurately or inaccurately
percieved. I don't disagree with you in principle and can appreciate your
personal experiences as well as the citation of David Lawrence, although I
am not familiar with him. I guess my main idea is that I think it is
possible to inbreed in certain ways and with certain generational
limitations that I don't know the specifics of and come up with fully viable
progeny. I think that this would be done with the explicit purpose of
trying to encourage a specific trait. Otherwise the practice has no value
and, as you suggest, is to be discouraged,
> to inbreed certain species, as there were no further specimens in the
> country to be acquired. (By the way, if anyone among us has any surplus
> Pristurus sokotranus please contact me off list) But when conditions allow
> us the opportunity to acquire unrelated offspring, then it might well be a
> good idea. No mystery about that.
>
> None of us here are geneticists, nor pretend to be. Among us are many
> interesting people from different walks of life. One thing common to all
> of us is the interest and welfare of geckos in general. Inbreeding in a
> controlled environment, such as captivity, only invites possible problems
> which nature itself provides some safe-guards against (ex. territory,
> intraspecific pressures to move or colonize other nearby territories when
> the territory is held by a higher ranking individual, etc.). Why
entertain
> ideas that there is nothing wrong with starting with a pair of siblings,
> and breeding them together for 20 - ? generations? It may have to be
done,
> but when provided with alternatives? It has been my experience within a
> few generations of inbreeding (again, Yes I've done it, cause nobody else
> had any specimens to lend for genetic help) that associated problems
> consist of the following: lower number of clutches yielded, infertility,
> birth defects, shorter life spans, decreased livelihood, decrease in
infant
> survival, and other issues. I am the first to admit that husbandry
issues,
> such as diet, may play an important role. But, nevertheless, with
similar,
> related species, when I've interjected unrelated specimens into my
breeding
> regimen, the animals have experienced a significant, or even tremendous,
> decrease in these maladies. Like Daniel said, there is a problem, it's
> just a matter of when and how long it takes to manifest itself.
>
> Selective breeding for desired traits is something that exists in this
> hobby, and also in the lines of many other animals bred in captivity. But
> that was not the original issue. The original issue like you stated was
> the initial inquiry of whether inbreeding was "is there a problem with
> inbreeding among reptiles". There is no definitive truth, only definitive
> horse-sense.
Sounds like certain kinds of inbreeding are ok for a while, but not
desireable.
>
> << It is my opinion that lizard species are more like each other than
> not.>>
>
> Compared to what, domesticated dogs:)? Intra or interspecifically? Ever
> kept many Bavayia, Diplodactylus (esp. ciliaris), or Nephrurus species? A
> LOT of variation (coloration, scalation, length, habitat preference, etc.)
> within many of the species, and between species, that confuses the best
> and most well-known taxonomists. Some have lumped genera together,
> seemingly more out of boredom, only to have them split again later by
> someone else with a different perspective.
Ok, I'll admit that I took a shot at your statement that you can't
apply an observation or feature of one species of gecko to all geckos with
impunity. But I was talking my cue from taxonomy and the Family Sauria.
>
> << I'm not breeding right now -
> I'm mostly interested in Leopard Gecko husbandry.>>
>
> Then in accordance with what I mentioned previously regarding the certain
> inbreeding that has occurred with this species, and your interest in the
> topic, you should have nothing to worry about for the bulk of your life.
> Better to leave our shortcomings to the inheritance of our children.
> Perhaps our grandchildren, if they also become interested in our history
> and inherit our inbred stocks, can have this discussion when they compare
> mutations from lack of new genetic input:) 'Y' (peace)
This problem came up with the Freshwater Angelfish, which became very
susceptible to a certain disease and ceased to be a viable stock in the pet
trade. Angelfish were very hard to come by for a couple of years, and I
notice that now at my lfs (local fish store) prices have doubled during that
time. I imagine that the breeders brought in more wild stock and saved
whatever lines they could. So I agree that there is a limit to in-breeding.
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