On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:22 AM Andreas Sandberg via gem5-dev < gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote:
> Hi Bobby, > > Can't we solve some of these issues by just moving the mailinglist to a > better system with good archiving? That should solve both the spam issue > and some of the usability issues. I have looked at bit at groups.io since > it is used in a project I'm contributing to in my spare time and it seems > like a good hybrid between a mailinglist and a forum. They seem to have > good support for grouping by topic, hash tag filtering, RSS feeds, and > plenty of integrations. > The maintenance requirement of gem5-us...@gem5.org has been extraordinary. I really don't see how we can keep using that mailing list. Bobby has spent 50+ hours fighting with it in the past 6 months. From what I can tell, the way we have many people posting to a single list that ~1000 people subscribe to just isn't a normal use case for email anymore. We're getting blocked by spam filters, having to answer lots of questions about how to subscribe, etc. If someone else is willing to step up and take ownership of the mailing list that would be great. It's just not something that we currently have resources for right now. We thought that moving to a managed system would help, but it hasn't solved the main problems: mail is still getting hijacked by spam filters, and people are still having problems signing up. > > I really can't see what a Discourse-style forum would give us that you > can't get from an email list with a good archive. I generally find forums > at least as annoying as email archives when going back to look for > information about a topic. The lack of threading within topics tends to > make discussion really hard to follow, which usually isn't an issue in a > well-behaved email list. > I'm not sure I understand the difference between Discourse and groups.io other than the interface. Could you describe why you think that groups.io would be better than discourse? Also, from my experience, we have a number of people who try to contribute that *don't* have a well behaved email client. We see a large number of messages that are "off thread" (e.g., replying to a digest, changing the subject line accidentally, or just replying to the wrong message). > Is the barrier of entry that people feel like the list is to "formal" or > think that their questions are stupid? I'm not convinced that the latter > would be solved by switching to a forum-style system like Discourse. A less > formal chat system in addition to the list might be a better way to lower > the barrier of entry. > I disagree somewhat with this. I think that if we had a discourse section titled "any questions here" or "new user questions" that it *would* lower the barrier to entry and make people feel more comfortable. > I have found the Slack (despite the poor threading) system used by Zephyr > very useful when debugging/developing drivers. It has been a convenient > low-latency channel when working on the same subsystem as other people in > the project and a general "I have seen this weird issue, has anyone else > seen anything like it?". It's not a complete substitute for email lists > though. > I feel that while slack might be useful, it's fundamentally different from the current users list. While it's gotten much better over the past several years, we still frequently answer the same questions over and over again on the mailing list because 1) we need to improve our documentation and 2) the mailing list isn't easy for most people to search. I (personally) just can't imagine answering gem5 questions on slack. There's too much in my life that demands immediate attention already! But maybe that's just me. Cheers, Jason > Cheers, > Andreas > > On 06/07/2020 03:34, Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev wrote: > > I personally see the problem of people not answering questions to be a > fixed constant regardless as to what medium we choose. It's a shame, but > it's a "people problem" which I agree won't be solved by deploying new > platforms. > > The reason for moving from the mailing-list is the mailing-list just > doesn't appear to be an appropriate technology for tech support. I get > emails every other week from someone who struggles to join gem5-users, and > it normally turns out their gem5-user emails are ending up in spam. It's > difficult to search through the mail archive to see if your question has > been asked previously, it's hard to format your messages correctly, > impossible to tag or categorize, and, I've already had students tell me > they feel like reaching out over the gem5-users mailing list is awkward and > embarrassing for the type of questions they want to ask. As a result, they > just avoid doing so. > > My issue with slack is it's got poor threading, and I'd quite like a good > archive of answered questions for people to search. Though I'm not opposed > to it as it has the plus of being popular (as shallow as it may be, I find > going with the most popular solution to a problem is often the best > course-of-action). > > -- > Dr. Bobby R. Bruce > Room 2235, > Kemper Hall, UC Davis > Davis, > CA, 95616 > > web: https://www.bobbybruce.net > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 3:45 PM Gabe Black via gem5-dev <gem5-dev@gem5.org> > wrote: > >> I haven't used Slack before (yeah, I know, behind the times :-), but I >> 100% agree with that last part. Having the perfect medium won't help if >> there aren't enough people around to actually use it to answer questions. >> >> Gabe >> >> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:45 AM Andreas Sandberg via gem5-dev < >> gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote: >> >>> I would probably be more in favour of a split email+Slack/Teams >>> approach. Email works well for most discussion, but I like the quick >>> more informal communication in a chat system. I have generally been very >>> happy with the way Slack has worked when I have contributed to Zephyr in >>> my spare time. As long as you have a threading email client, I can't see >>> any benefits of a forum other than archiving (services like groups.io >>> seems to solve that). >>> >>> I think we are fooling ourselves if we think switching from email to a >>> different medium is going to solve underlying problem the there is a >>> small number of experienced users that answer most of the questions on >>> the lists. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Andreas >>> >>> On 10/06/2020 16:32, Daniel Gerzhoy via gem5-dev wrote: >>> > I think this is a great idea! Emails threads aren't a great way to do >>> this >>> > just because there's no mechanism for well formatted responses to >>> > particular points in someone's questions, posting code, or things like >>> > "upvoting" responses. >>> > >>> > I see Daniel's point about less engagement if we move it to a forum, >>> but I >>> > think that could be alleviated by encouraging people to keep email >>> > notifications up. >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > >>> > Dan >>> > >>> > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 5:23 AM Giacomo Travaglini via gem5-dev < >>> > gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote: >>> > >>> >> I agree with Daniel and Ciro; it's difficult/annoying to navigate >>> through >>> >> old unanswered emails and I presume nobody does that at the moment. >>> >> Most of the time if your email doesn't get a quick response as soon >>> as it >>> >> gets posted, you can forget about getting some help as time passes; >>> there >>> >> is a short window and you really have to hope someone flagged your >>> email or >>> >> got some time to address your problem. >>> >> >>> >> I wouldn't use JIRA to be honest for asking questions; that's beyond >>> the >>> >> scope of JIRA and it would be chaotic to mix Bug Reports, Improvement >>> tasks >>> >> with normal questions (like: I cannot build gem5 on my machine, or >>> does >>> >> anyone know how this works) >>> >> >>> >> Giacomo >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: Ciro Santilli via gem5-dev <gem5-dev@gem5.org> >>> >> Sent: 10 June 2020 09:21 >>> >> To: gem5 Developer List <gem5-dev@gem5.org> >>> >> Cc: Ciro Santilli <ciro.santi...@arm.com> >>> >> Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list >>> with >>> >> Discourse >>> >> >>> >> I would just use JIRA. But after that, Discourse is the second best. >>> And >>> >> anything is better than a mailing list :-) >>> ________________________________ >>> >> From: Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev <gem5-dev@gem5.org> >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:40 PM >>> >> To: gem5 Developer List <gem5-dev@gem5.org> >>> >> Cc: gem5 users mailing list <gem5-us...@gem5.org>; Jason Lowe-Power < >>> >> ja...@lowepower.com> >>> >> Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list >>> with >>> >> Discourse >>> >> >>> >> +1 for Discourse :). >>> >> >>> >> Just to give a bit more context: I'm also trying to find a good forum >>> for >>> >> community engagement during my online Learning gem5 class this >>> summer. I >>> >> would like to find a platform that could be used generally for my >>> class >>> >> this summer, future iterations of the class, and general gem5 >>> questions, as >>> >> I believe there will be significant overlap between these groups. >>> >> >>> >> Other potential options that IMO have more cons than pros when >>> compared to >>> >> Discourse: >>> >> - Slack/Teams/etc. >>> >> - gitter.im >>> >> - stackoverflow >>> >> >>> >> That said, we're open to suggestions :). Our goal is to create the >>> most >>> >> welcoming and inclusive environment possible. We'll go where our >>> users are! >>> >> >>> >> Cheers, >>> >> Jason >>> >> >>> >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev < >>> gem5-dev@gem5.org >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> >>> >>> In an effort to better support the gem5 community, there has been a >>> >>> suggestion that we drop the gem5-users mailing list and replace it >>> >>> with Discourse, https://www.discourse.org/about, a web-based >>> >>> discussion platform. I'm writing this email to propose this to the >>> >>> community and ask for feedback on the matter. >>> >>> >>> >>> We have noticed that using mailing lists as our primary communication >>> >>> platform is problematic. Sending an email to a list can be daunting >>> >>> experience, requiring an etiquette many are not accustom to. I'm sure >>> >>> I'm not the only one who feels like they are unduly bothering a large >>> >>> number of people when posting to a list (like I'm doing right now :) >>> >>> ). This is, of course, an unfortunate hurdle for many to get over >>> when >>> >>> they encounter problems using gem5, particularly those new to the >>> >>> project. I've come to believe mailing lists are simply not a very >>> good >>> >>> technology for fostering community engagement and helping those who >>> are >>> >> running into difficulties. >>> >>> Mailing lists are also difficult to search, and lack proper >>> formatting >>> >>> mechanisms to neatly display attributes such as code and output logs. >>> >>> >>> >>> Looking around at alternative technologies available, Discourse >>> >>> appears to be a suitable replacement. For those unaware, Discourse is >>> >>> (essentially) a revamp of messaging forums. It is an increasingly >>> >>> popular platform for users and developers in open source projects to >>> >>> communicate with one another (see LLVM's discourse as an example: >>> >>> https://llvm.discourse.group ). >>> >>> All-in-all, I think it's a well-designed product and contains all the >>> >>> features we'd expect and need to get our work done. I can see no >>> >>> immediate downsides to using it, though feedback from the community >>> on >>> >>> the matter would be greatly appreciated, particularly from those who >>> >>> have used Discourse before. Dissenting opinions on the whole idea of >>> >>> moving away from the gem5-user's mailing list are also welcome. >>> >>> >>> >>> So, let me know what you think! :) >>> >>> >>> >>> Please note, regardless as to any decision made, we will continue the >>> >>> use of the gem5-dev mailing list for technical discussions for the >>> >>> foreseeable future. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Bobby >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dr. Bobby R. Bruce >>> >>> Room 2235, >>> >>> Kemper Hall, UC Davis >>> >>> Davis, >>> >>> CA, 95616 >>> >>> >>> >>> web: https://www.bobbybruce.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org To unsubscribe send an >>> >>> email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org >>> >>> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org To unsubscribe send an >>> email >>> >> to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org >>> >> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org To unsubscribe send an >>> email >>> >> to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org >>> >> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s >>> >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >>> >> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>> >> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose >>> the >>> >> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or >>> copy the >>> >> information in any medium. Thank you. >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org >>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org >>> >> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s >>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org >>> > To unsubscribe send an email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org >>> > %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s >>> >>> >>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the >>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the >>> information in any medium. Thank you. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org >>> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org >> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s > > > _______________________________________________ > gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org > To unsubscribe send an email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org > %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org > To unsubscribe send an email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org > %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
_______________________________________________ gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org To unsubscribe send an email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
