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I think you're making an incorrect assumption in that any new computer
user is forced to use an inherently insecure operating system.
-Tim
On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 09:42, Doug Riddle wrote:
I want to wade in on this one, because I can see both sides.
I'll use my father as an example. He is very intelligent, a former
general of the US Army, captain of industry, etc, etc. He is not, by
any stretch of the imagination computer literate. He can use a PC
and send and recive emails, but if the screen changes colors, he
calls for help. To him, a computer is a "blackbox." At almost 70
years old he has no interest in trying to learn the workings of said
box, he just wants to stay in touch and talk to some old friends. He
should be able to do that in reasonable safety. He understands there
are security issues, and has accepted the fact that his ignorance
will occassionaly lead to his PC being wiped out. He counts on
keeping a low profile and a decent virus scanner to protect him from
most problems, and it will.
I, on the other hand run some domains, manage some websites and love
Linux. My exposure is a higher, and I have to take more steps to be
sure that not only am I safe, but that I am not unwittingly used as a
tool by someone else in a DoS or worse.
Then there is the new user. Unless they are so dense as to have to
have someone come over and turn on the PC and use the mouse for them,
they have to be aware of the basic threats a computer user on the
internet faces. However, their skill level does not allow them to
combat these threats. Informing them of specifc threats on a
constant and consistant basis does them no good, as they cannot
respond. It is a sad but true fact that there is more misinformation
than factual information available.
It is deplorable that Microsoft doesn't make a better effort to
secure their software and educate their customers. Given the current
disasters in the American corporate model it is not surprizing that
Microsoft treats their customers as non-entities, but it is
unethical.
So, what is a good approach to sending out notices about security
flaws? Probably a new mailing list. Anyone that wants to suscribe
and try and protect themselves can subscribe. Advise the new users
to tackle the basics before subscribing. That way it is a self-paced
system and those that wish to remain blissfully ignorant are welcome
to do so.
In a perfect world, these would not be issues, we do not live in
Perfect as the commercial says. We live in a society where half of
the people are so failed by the education system that they cannot
read and write well enough to fill out a job application. We need to
cut the new people some slack while they come up to speed. Besides,
there is no surer teacher that fire is hot than a scorch mark on your
hand.
My two cents, US.
Doug Riddle
--- Jerald Sheets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But don't you consider it a moral issue that common *REAL* security
> threats are not discussed freely?
>
> I find that amoral at best and criminal at worst. In any event, it
> does
> a disservice to new folk.
>
> A very palatable method of succeeding at free discourse without the
> detriment of speech deprivation :-) would be to have a
> "clickers-announce" list where such items are "announced" as they
> occur,
> and then in the context of the same message you could present the
> time
> and place (and cost if applicable) of the discussion "what it is
> and
> what you can do".
>
> As an educator, I would find this a fine occasion to divert from
> standard curriculum, and follow a thread explaining the state of
> security today, what it is, how it works, and what you can do.
> Simply
> quashing a free discourse on said topic does a service to no
> one....ESPECIALLY newbies.
>
> --JMS
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Braud
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:07 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [brlug-general] IE un-Security
> >
> >
> > John, the problem is, a very large percentage of the
> > membership of CC are New-Newbies. They just got their
> > computer, (in hours usage), and are afraid to turn it on if
> > someone says "security problems". You have to remember that
> > on a 1 - 10 scale, the Linux group are at an 8 - 10 and the
> > members that we teach are in the 1 - 3 range. Security
> > problems are real and I try to address it every workshop I
> > give, but a lot of the CC membership still don't even have
> > the basic antivirus or firewall software even thought you can
> > get them free. Larry
> >
> > > John Beamon wrote:
> > > "Holy crap", indeed. Is it really PI to mention security
> > problems in
> > > the Clickers' list? What else do 1500 ppl talk about on a
> > daily basis
> > > in what is essentially a Windows club?
> > >
> > > </span>
> > >
> > > oof! That was harsh. I'm sorry. It slipped out before I
> could
> > > restrain it. No offense intended. Seriously, when MS' own
> Supreme
> > > Architect (or whatever his title is this week) goes for Trusted
>
> > > Computing (TM) and makes security job #1 for the world's
> largest
> > > software company, it seems that a basically Windows club would
> > > consider this an important subject to converse freely
> > about. I mean,
> > > if I checked my mail more than my securityfocus.com and
> cert.org, I
> > > would APPRECIATE people pointing out major security issues
> > from time
> > > to time. Finding the subject gauche is just obtuse beyond
> > belief in
> > > modern computing times. No offense intended, but I "don't get
> it".
> > >
> > > -j
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > General mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > http://brlug.net/mailman/listinfo/general_brlu> g.net
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > General mailing list
> > [email protected]
> http://brlug.net/mailman/listinfo/general_brlug.net
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://brlug.net/mailman/listinfo/general_brlug.net
__________________________________________________
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I think you're making an incorrect assumption in that any new computer user is
forced to use an inherently insecure operating system.
<BR>
<BR>
-Tim
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 09:42, Doug Riddle wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<PRE><FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>I want to wade in on this one,
because I can see both sides.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>I'll use my father as an example. He
is very intelligent, a former</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>general of the US Army, captain of
industry, etc, etc. He is not, by</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>any stretch of the imagination computer
literate. He can use a PC</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>and send and recive emails, but if the
screen changes colors, he</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>calls for help. To him, a computer is
a "blackbox." At almost 70</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>years old he has no interest in trying
to learn the workings of said</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>box, he just wants to stay in touch and
talk to some old friends. He</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>should be able to do that in reasonable
safety. He understands there</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>are security issues, and has accepted
the fact that his ignorance</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>will occassionaly lead to his PC being
wiped out. He counts on</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>keeping a low profile and a decent
virus scanner to protect him from</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>most problems, and it
will.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>I, on the other hand run some domains,
manage some websites and love</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Linux. My exposure is a higher, and I
have to take more steps to be</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>sure that not only am I safe, but that
I am not unwittingly used as a</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>tool by someone else in a DoS or
worse.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Then there is the new user. Unless
they are so dense as to have to</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>have someone come over and turn on the
PC and use the mouse for them,</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>they have to be aware of the basic
threats a computer user on the</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>internet faces. However, their skill
level does not allow them to</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>combat these threats. Informing them
of specifc threats on a</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>constant and consistant basis does them
no good, as they cannot</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>respond. It is a sad but true fact
that there is more misinformation</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>than factual information
available.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>It is deplorable that Microsoft doesn't
make a better effort to</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>secure their software and educate their
customers. Given the current</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>disasters in the American corporate
model it is not surprizing that</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Microsoft treats their customers as
non-entities, but it is</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>unethical.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>So, what is a good approach to sending
out notices about security</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>flaws? Probably a new mailing list.
Anyone that wants to suscribe</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>and try and protect themselves can
subscribe. Advise the new users</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>to tackle the basics before
subscribing. That way it is a self-paced</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>system and those that wish to remain
blissfully ignorant are welcome</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>to do so.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>In a perfect world, these would not be
issues, we do not live in</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Perfect as the commercial says. We
live in a society where half of</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>the people are so failed by the
education system that they cannot</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>read and write well enough to fill out
a job application. We need to</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>cut the new people some slack while
they come up to speed. Besides,</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>there is no surer teacher that fire is
hot than a scorch mark on your</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>hand.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>My two cents, US.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Doug Riddle</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>--- Jerald Sheets <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> wrote:</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> But don't you consider it a moral
issue that common *REAL* security</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> threats are not discussed
freely?</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> I find that amoral at best and
criminal at worst. In any event, it</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> does</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> a disservice to new
folk.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> A very palatable method of
succeeding at free discourse without the</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> detriment of speech deprivation
:-) would be to have a</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> "clickers-announce" list
where such items are "announced" as they</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> occur,</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> and then in the context of the
same message you could present the</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> time</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> and place (and cost if applicable)
of the discussion "what it is</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> and</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> what you can
do".</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> As an educator, I would find this
a fine occasion to divert from</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> standard curriculum, and follow a
thread explaining the state of</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> security today, what it is, how it
works, and what you can do. </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> Simply</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> quashing a free discourse on said
topic does a service to no</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> one....ESPECIALLY
newbies.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> --JMS</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > -----Original
Message-----</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Larry Braud</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > Sent: Wednesday, July 03,
2002 9:07 AM</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > To:
[email protected]</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > Subject: Re: [brlug-general]
IE un-Security</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > John, the problem is, a very
large percentage of the </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > membership of CC are
New-Newbies. They just got their </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > computer, (in hours usage),
and are afraid to turn it on if </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > someone says "security
problems". You have to remember that </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > on a 1 - 10 scale, the Linux
group are at an 8 - 10 and the </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > members that we teach are in
the 1 - 3 range. Security </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > problems are real and I try
to address it every workshop I </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > give, but a lot of the CC
membership still don't even have </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > the basic antivirus or
firewall software even thought you can </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > get them free.
Larry</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > John Beamon
wrote:</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > "Holy crap",
indeed. Is it really PI to mention security </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > problems in </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > the Clickers' list?
What else do 1500 ppl talk about on a </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > daily basis </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > in what is essentially a
Windows club?</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > ></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > >
</span></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > ></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > oof! That was harsh.
I'm sorry. It slipped out before I</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> could </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > restrain it. No offense
intended. Seriously, when MS' own</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> Supreme </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > Architect (or whatever
his title is this week) goes for Trusted</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > Computing (TM) and makes
security job #1 for the world's</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> largest </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > software company, it
seems that a basically Windows club would </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > consider this an
important subject to converse freely </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > about. I mean,
</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > if I checked my mail
more than my securityfocus.com and</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> cert.org, I </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > would APPRECIATE people
pointing out major security issues </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > from time </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > to time. Finding the
subject gauche is just obtuse beyond </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > belief in </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > modern computing times.
No offense intended, but I "don't get</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> it".</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > ></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > -j</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > ></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > ></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > ></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > >
_______________________________________________</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > General mailing
list</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > [email protected]
</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> >
http://brlug.net/mailman/listinfo/general_brlu> g.net</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > ></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> >
_______________________________________________</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > General mailing
list</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> >
[email protected]</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>>
http://brlug.net/mailman/listinfo/general_brlug.net</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>>
_______________________________________________</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> General mailing
list</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> [email protected]</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>>
http://brlug.net/mailman/listinfo/general_brlug.net</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT
SIZE="3"><I>__________________________________________________</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Do You Yahoo!?</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First
Month Free</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>http://sbc.yahoo.com</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT
SIZE="3"><I>_______________________________________________</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>General mailing list</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT
SIZE="3"><I>[email protected]</FONT></FONT></I></PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BLOCKQUOTE>
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