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The same momma and pappa can go to the same Sears and buy an iMac loaded
with MacOS X and have a relatively secure Posix OS, yes. Either way, I
don't think it's the job of the computer-educated to make the purchasers
of computers preloaded with Microsoft operating systems feel good about
their purchase. Cajun Clickers' interest in keeping users feeling good
about MS Windows is an economic one, which I can understand, but that
doesn't apply to me.
-Tim
On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 10:34, Doug Riddle wrote:
An Operating System in the hands of a novice is inherently unsecure.
Some OS's are worse than others, but it is the wetware that is the
larger issue at the outset. And while "forced" is a strong term, it
doesn't miss the mark by much. You are not suggesting that momma and
pappa can go down to Sears and get the Hot Wheels Computer for little
Johnny or the Barbie PC for little Jill with a secure Posix OS and
Barney software on it are you? They're going to buy Microsoft
because they don't trust the hippies in the Yurts and Tepees that are
trying to give their software away, and the MS tortureware comes with
the cute little box they're buying.`
Doug
--- Tim Fournet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think you're making an incorrect assumption in that any new
> computer
> user is forced to use an inherently insecure operating system.
>
> -Tim
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 09:42, Doug Riddle wrote:
>
> I want to wade in on this one, because I can see both sides.
>
> I'll use my father as an example. He is very intelligent, a
> former
> general of the US Army, captain of industry, etc, etc. He is
> not, by
> any stretch of the imagination computer literate. He can use a
> PC
> and send and recive emails, but if the screen changes colors,
> he
> calls for help. To him, a computer is a "blackbox." At almost
> 70
> years old he has no interest in trying to learn the workings of
> said
> box, he just wants to stay in touch and talk to some old
> friends. He
> should be able to do that in reasonable safety. He understands
> there
> are security issues, and has accepted the fact that his
> ignorance
> will occassionaly lead to his PC being wiped out. He counts on
> keeping a low profile and a decent virus scanner to protect him
> from
> most problems, and it will.
>
> I, on the other hand run some domains, manage some websites and
> love
> Linux. My exposure is a higher, and I have to take more steps
> to be
> sure that not only am I safe, but that I am not unwittingly
> used as a
> tool by someone else in a DoS or worse.
>
> Then there is the new user. Unless they are so dense as to
> have to
> have someone come over and turn on the PC and use the mouse for
> them,
> they have to be aware of the basic threats a computer user on
> the
> internet faces. However, their skill level does not allow them
> to
> combat these threats. Informing them of specifc threats on a
> constant and consistant basis does them no good, as they cannot
> respond. It is a sad but true fact that there is more
> misinformation
> than factual information available.
>
> It is deplorable that Microsoft doesn't make a better effort to
> secure their software and educate their customers. Given the
> current
> disasters in the American corporate model it is not surprizing
> that
> Microsoft treats their customers as non-entities, but it is
> unethical.
>
> So, what is a good approach to sending out notices about
> security
> flaws? Probably a new mailing list. Anyone that wants to
> suscribe
> and try and protect themselves can subscribe. Advise the new
> users
> to tackle the basics before subscribing. That way it is a
> self-paced
> system and those that wish to remain blissfully ignorant are
> welcome
> to do so.
>
> In a perfect world, these would not be issues, we do not live
> in
> Perfect as the commercial says. We live in a society where
> half of
> the people are so failed by the education system that they
> cannot
> read and write well enough to fill out a job application. We
> need to
> cut the new people some slack while they come up to speed.
> Besides,
> there is no surer teacher that fire is hot than a scorch mark
> on your
> hand.
>
> My two cents, US.
>
> Doug Riddle
>
>
> --- Jerald Sheets <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > But don't you consider it a moral issue that common *REAL*
> security
> > threats are not discussed freely?
> >
> > I find that amoral at best and criminal at worst. In any
> event, it
> > does
> > a disservice to new folk.
> >
> > A very palatable method of succeeding at free discourse
> without the
> > detriment of speech deprivation :-) would be to have a
> > "clickers-announce" list where such items are "announced" as
> they
> > occur,
> > and then in the context of the same message you could present
> the
> > time
> > and place (and cost if applicable) of the discussion "what it
> is
> > and
> > what you can do".
> >
> > As an educator, I would find this a fine occasion to divert
> from
> > standard curriculum, and follow a thread explaining the state
> of
> > security today, what it is, how it works, and what you can
> do.
> > Simply
> > quashing a free discourse on said topic does a service to no
> > one....ESPECIALLY newbies.
> >
> > --JMS
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Braud
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:07 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: Re: [brlug-general] IE un-Security
> > >
> > >
> > > John, the problem is, a very large percentage of the
> > > membership of CC are New-Newbies. They just got their
> > > computer, (in hours usage), and are afraid to turn it on if
>
> > > someone says "security problems". You have to remember that
>
> > > on a 1 - 10 scale, the Linux group are at an 8 - 10 and the
>
> > > members that we teach are in the 1 - 3 range. Security
> > > problems are real and I try to address it every workshop I
> > > give, but a lot of the CC membership still don't even have
> > > the basic antivirus or firewall software even thought you
> can
> > > get them free. Larry
> > >
> > > > John Beamon wrote:
> > > > "Holy crap", indeed. Is it really PI to mention security
>
> > > problems in
> > > > the Clickers' list? What else do 1500 ppl talk about on
> a
> > > daily basis
> > > > in what is essentially a Windows club?
> > > >
> > > > </span>
> > > >
> > > > oof! That was harsh. I'm sorry. It slipped out before
> I
> > could
> > > > restrain it. No offense intended. Seriously, when MS'
> own
> > Supreme
> > > > Architect (or whatever his title is this week) goes for
> Trusted
> >
> > > > Computing (TM) and makes security job #1 for the world's
> > largest
> > > > software company, it seems that a basically Windows club
> would
> > > > consider this an important subject to converse freely
> > > about. I mean,
> > > > if I checked my mail more than my securityfocus.com and
> > cert.org, I
> > > > would APPRECIATE people pointing out major security
> issues
> > > from time
> > > > to time. Finding the subject gauche is just obtuse
> beyond
> > > belief in
> > > > modern computing times. No offense intended, but I
> "don't get
> > it".
> > > >
> > > > -j
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > General mailing list
> > > > [email protected]
> > > http://brlug.net/mailman/listinfo/general_brlu> g.net
>
=== message truncated ===
=====
Warmest Regards,
Doug Riddle
http://www.dougriddle.com
## Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the
Peoples' Liberty Teeth." - George Washington ##
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The same momma and pappa can go to the same Sears and buy an iMac loaded with
MacOS X and have a relatively secure Posix OS, yes. Either way, I don't think
it's the job of the computer-educated to make the purchasers of computers
preloaded with Microsoft operating systems <I>feel good</I> about their
purchase. Cajun Clickers' interest in keeping users feeling good about MS
Windows is an economic one, which I can understand, but that doesn't apply to
me.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-Tim
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 10:34, Doug Riddle wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<PRE><FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>An Operating System in the hands
of a novice is inherently unsecure. </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Some OS's are worse than others, but it
is the wetware that is the</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>larger issue at the outset. And while
"forced" is a strong term, it</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>doesn't miss the mark by much. You are
not suggesting that momma and</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>pappa can go down to Sears and get the
Hot Wheels Computer for little</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Johnny or the Barbie PC for little Jill
with a secure Posix OS and</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Barney software on it are you? They're
going to buy Microsoft</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>because they don't trust the hippies in
the Yurts and Tepees that are</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>trying to give their software away, and
the MS tortureware comes with</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>the cute little box they're
buying.`</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Doug</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>--- Tim Fournet <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> wrote:</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> I think you're making an incorrect
assumption in that any new</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> computer</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> user is forced to use an
inherently insecure operating system. </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> -Tim</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 09:42, Doug
Riddle wrote:</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> I want to wade in on this one,
because I can see both sides.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> I'll use my father as an
example. He is very intelligent, a</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> former</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> general of the US Army,
captain of industry, etc, etc. He is</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> not, by</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> any stretch of the imagination
computer literate. He can use a</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> PC</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> and send and recive emails,
but if the screen changes colors,</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> he</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> calls for help. To him, a
computer is a "blackbox." At almost</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> 70</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> years old he has no interest
in trying to learn the workings of</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> said</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> box, he just wants to stay in
touch and talk to some old</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> friends. He</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> should be able to do that in
reasonable safety. He understands</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> there</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> are security issues, and has
accepted the fact that his</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> ignorance</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> will occassionaly lead to his
PC being wiped out. He counts on</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> keeping a low profile and a
decent virus scanner to protect him</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> from</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> most problems, and it
will.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> I, on the other hand run some
domains, manage some websites and</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> love</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> Linux. My exposure is a
higher, and I have to take more steps</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> to be</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> sure that not only am I safe,
but that I am not unwittingly</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> used as a</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> tool by someone else in a DoS
or worse.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> Then there is the new user.
Unless they are so dense as to</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> have to</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> have someone come over and
turn on the PC and use the mouse for</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> them,</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> they have to be aware of the
basic threats a computer user on</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> the</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> internet faces. However,
their skill level does not allow them</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> to</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> combat these threats.
Informing them of specifc threats on a</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> constant and consistant basis
does them no good, as they cannot</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> respond. It is a sad but true
fact that there is more</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> misinformation</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> than factual information
available.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> It is deplorable that
Microsoft doesn't make a better effort to</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> secure their software and
educate their customers. Given the</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> current</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> disasters in the American
corporate model it is not surprizing</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> that</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> Microsoft treats their
customers as non-entities, but it is</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> unethical.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> So, what is a good approach to
sending out notices about</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> security</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> flaws? Probably a new mailing
list. Anyone that wants to</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> suscribe</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> and try and protect themselves
can subscribe. Advise the new</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> users</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> to tackle the basics before
subscribing. That way it is a</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> self-paced</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> system and those that wish to
remain blissfully ignorant are</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> welcome</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> to do so.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> In a perfect world, these
would not be issues, we do not live</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> in</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> Perfect as the commercial
says. We live in a society where</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> half of</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> the people are so failed by
the education system that they</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> cannot</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> read and write well enough to
fill out a job application. We</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> need to</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> cut the new people some slack
while they come up to speed. </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> Besides,</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> there is no surer teacher that
fire is hot than a scorch mark</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> on your</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> hand.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> My two cents,
US.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> Doug Riddle</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> --- Jerald Sheets <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> wrote:</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > But don't you consider it
a moral issue that common *REAL*</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> security</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > threats are not discussed
freely?</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > I find that amoral at
best and criminal at worst. In any</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> event, it</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > does</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > a disservice to new
folk.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > A very palatable method
of succeeding at free discourse</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> without the</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > detriment of speech
deprivation :-) would be to have a</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> >
"clickers-announce" list where such items are "announced"
as</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> they</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > occur,</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > and then in the context
of the same message you could present</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> the</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > time</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > and place (and cost if
applicable) of the discussion "what it</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> is</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > and</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > what you can
do".</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > As an educator, I would
find this a fine occasion to divert</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> from</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > standard curriculum, and
follow a thread explaining the state</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> of</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > security today, what it
is, how it works, and what you can</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> do. </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > Simply</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > quashing a free discourse
on said topic does a service to no</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > one....ESPECIALLY
newbies.</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > --JMS</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > -----Original
Message-----</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > From: [EMAIL
PROTECTED] </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > [mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Braud</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > Sent: Wednesday,
July 03, 2002 9:07 AM</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > To:
[email protected]</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > Subject: Re:
[brlug-general] IE un-Security</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > John, the problem
is, a very large percentage of the </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > membership of CC are
New-Newbies. They just got their </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > computer, (in hours
usage), and are afraid to turn it on if</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > someone says
"security problems". You have to remember that</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > on a 1 - 10 scale,
the Linux group are at an 8 - 10 and the</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > members that we
teach are in the 1 - 3 range. Security </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > problems are real
and I try to address it every workshop I </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > give, but a lot of
the CC membership still don't even have </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > the basic antivirus
or firewall software even thought you</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> can </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > get them free.
Larry</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > John Beamon
wrote:</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > "Holy
crap", indeed. Is it really PI to mention security</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > problems in
</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > the Clickers'
list? What else do 1500 ppl talk about on</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> a </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > daily basis
</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > in what is
essentially a Windows club?</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > >
></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > >
</span></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > >
></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > oof! That was
harsh. I'm sorry. It slipped out before</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> I</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > could </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > restrain it.
No offense intended. Seriously, when MS'</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> own</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > Supreme </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > Architect (or
whatever his title is this week) goes for</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> Trusted</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > Computing (TM)
and makes security job #1 for the world's</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > largest </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > software
company, it seems that a basically Windows club</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> would </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > consider this
an important subject to converse freely </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > about. I mean,
</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > if I checked my
mail more than my securityfocus.com and</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > cert.org, I
</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > would
APPRECIATE people pointing out major security</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> issues </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > from time
</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > to time.
Finding the subject gauche is just obtuse</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> beyond </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > belief in
</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > modern
computing times. No offense intended, but I</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> "don't get</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> >
it".</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > >
></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > >
-j</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > >
></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > >
></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > >
></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > >
_______________________________________________</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > > General mailing
list</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > > >
[email protected] </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> > >
http://brlug.net/mailman/listinfo/general_brlu> g.net</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>=== message truncated
===</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>=====</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Warmest Regards,</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Doug Riddle</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT
SIZE="3"><I>http://www.dougriddle.com</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I> </FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>## Firearms are second only to the
Constitution in importance; they are the Peoples' Liberty Teeth." - George
Washington ##</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT
SIZE="3"><I>__________________________________________________</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Do You Yahoo!?</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First
Month Free</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>http://sbc.yahoo.com</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I></FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT
SIZE="3"><I>_______________________________________________</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT SIZE="3"><I>General mailing list</FONT></FONT></I>
<FONT COLOR="#737373"><FONT
SIZE="3"><I>[email protected]</FONT></FONT></I></PRE>
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