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Again, sorry about the delay. I opted to spend the time with family over the holidays instead of the computer, I still haven't reloaded it. I guess I'll do that tonight. I was sort of hoping Santa would bring me a CD-burner. He brought me a DVD player instead, so now I need a new TV. [sigh] But I digress. I was talking about this with my brother-in-law. Stephen is a historian (he is an out of work historian in school to get his teaching credentials to be a history teacher). The loss of knowledge came from three primary causes. (As I recall our conversation.) The fall of the Roman Empire was closely followed by the rise of the Muslim Empires (Persia, and the Ottoman Empires). They got most of the old libraries, and fostered universities. The people that want to study go where the teachers are. A stable economy and society retains and builds knowledge, chaotic ones do not. In one sense the light of knowledge did not so much go out, as move. 2) What we think of as Europe was not a fountain of knowledge at the end of the Roman Empire anyway. Europe of 400-500 AD was populated by people not too far removed from the Stone Age, or more like Bronze Age nomads than the Romans at their height. As someone mentioned, the church continued to push into the north, but the real action was near the Mediterranean. So there was no drive among the learned to brave the Vandals, Visigoths, Teutonic and the Celtic tribes. Likewise, what was left of the Roman Empire and the church stood between Europe and the Persians; so they could make no inroads. 3) Plagues happen. The investigations into the weather and climate of the time are fairly recent events. We can however look at some of the poorer countries today fighting AIDS to get an idea of the economic and societal problems the subsistence-farming people, and semi-nomadic people in Europe faced between 100 AD and 1300 AD. In the poorest countries in Africa the younger segment of the population (15 years old to 25 years old) is suffering a 20-24% rate of infection with AIDS. We are not talking about HIV positive people; this segment has full-blown AIDS. For each one person with AIDS, at least two spend some, or all of their time taking care of them. This is also the most productive segment of the population. Under ideal climate conditions this would be tough. They have already had several draught years though. So now, with more than a quarter of their productive population stricken with the plague, or caring for the stricken, the fields are not all getting cultivated, or are poorly cultivated. Famine is setting in. The infected people are not clear on the cause of the disease. (This is truly tragic now, but was always true in the past.) The infection rate continues to climb, and the food production rate continues to fall. Communities grow more isolated. The death toll rises. Human populations are slow to recover. The climate continues to degrade. Other diseases, once less common and less deadly begin to ravage the population. Children die of diseases their parents survived due to better nutrition and the support of grandparents that mostly do not exist now. Very few of the children are growing up. Most of the old are succumbing to disease and dying earlier. The sexually transmitted diseases continue to thin the people of reproductive age and the water and food borne diseases get a better foothold. This cycle will continue over and over until a large enough segment of the population becomes immune to the main cause, or that population dies and is replaced from another stronger population from outside of the area. Eventually the climate shifts back and less effort produces more food and the process of civilization can begin again. If there is culture nearby, then the process can be started much closer to where it was before. If not, then a semi-nomadic way of life will continue for hundreds and hundreds of years. I suspect that before it is all said and done, there will be a dark age in Africa on the scale of the one in Europe. I suppose we could make a case for sub-Saharan Africa being in the middle of such an age now. We cant fix climates and we cannot impose order on chaos. If a third of your population is dying from plague and famine, you do not have the ability to put together the stability needed to solve the problem. http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,6512,763185,00.html Doug. Dustin Puryear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:At 06:18 PM 12/30/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Mat: > >Just a note about your tag. The dark ages were dark due to a lack of >light. There are several proposed reasons for the long winters and >dark skies, but the evidence is very firm, the dark ages were dark, >cold, and damp in Europe. I believe that was one reason for the labeling of the Dark Ages. The other, and the one I learned (and now I know two!), is the loss of knowledge after the fall of the Roman Empire, and the subsequent clamping down on research and ideas that did not benefit the Church. Is this incorrect? I have seen this as the stated reason many times in various texts. Ask your wife, I'm curious. --- Dustin Puryear Puryear Information Technology Windows, UNIX, and IT Consulting http://www.puryear-it.com _______________________________________________ General mailing list [email protected] http://oxygen.nocdirect.com/mailman/listinfo/general_brlug.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1485246863-1041529655=:70699 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3>Again, sorry about the delay. I opted to spend the time with family over the holidays <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">instead of the computer, I still haven't reloaded it.</SPAN> I guess I'll do that tonight. I was sort of hoping Santa would bring me a CD-burner. He brought me a DVD player instead, so now I need a new TV. [sigh] But I digress. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3>I was talking about this with my brother-in-law. Stephen is a historian (he is an out of work historian in school to get his teaching credentials to be a history teacher).</FONT></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3>The loss of knowledge came from three primary causes. (As I recall our conversation.) The fall of the Roman Empire was closely followed by the rise of the Muslim Empires (Persia, and the Ottoman Empires). They got most of the old libraries, and fostered universities. The people that want to study go where the teachers are. A stable economy and society retains and builds knowledge, chaotic ones do not. In one sense the light of knowledge did not so much go out, as move. 2) What we think of as Europe was not a fountain of knowledge at the end of the Roman Empire anyway. Europe of 400-500 AD was populated by people not too far removed from the Stone Age, or more like Bronze Age nomads than the Romans at their height.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>As someone mentioned, the church continued to push into the north, but the real action was near the Mediterranean.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So there was no drive among the learned to brave the Vandals, Visigoths, Teutonic and the Celtic tribes.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Likewise, what was left of the Roman Empire and the church stood between Europe and the Persians; so they could make no inroads. 3) Plagues happen. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The investigations into the weather and climate of the time are fairly recent events.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We can however look at some of the poorer countries today fighting AIDS to get an idea of the economic and societal problems the subsistence-farming people, and semi-nomadic people in Europe faced between 100 AD and 1300 AD.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3>In the poorest countries in Africa the younger segment of the population (15 years old to 25 years old) is suffering a 20-24% rate of infection with AIDS.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We are not talking about HIV positive people; this segment has full-blown AIDS.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>For each one person with AIDS, at least two spend some, or all of their time taking care of them.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is also the most productive segment of the population.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Under ideal climate conditions this would be tough.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>They have already had several draught years though.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So now, with more than a quarter of their productive population stricken with the plague, or caring for the stricken, the fields are not all getting cultivated, or are poorly cultivated.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Famine is setting in.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The infected people are not clear on the cause of the disease.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(This is truly tragic now, but was always true in the past.) The infection rate continues to climb, and the food production rate continues to fall.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Communities grow more isolated.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The death toll rises.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Human populations are slow to recover.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The climate continues to degrade.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Other diseases, once less common and less deadly begin to ravage the population.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Children die of diseases their parents survived due to better nutrition and the support of grandparents that mostly do not exist now.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Very few of the children are growing up.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Most of the old are succumbing to disease and dying earlier.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The sexually transmitted diseases continue to thin the people of reproductive age and the water and food borne diseases get a better foothold.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This cycle will continue over and over until a large enough segment of the population becomes immune to the main cause, or that population dies and is replaced from another stronger population from outside of the area.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Eventually the climate shifts back and less effort produces more food and the process of civilization can begin again.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If there is culture nearby, then the process can be started much closer to where it was before.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If not, then a semi-nomadic way of life will continue for hundreds and hundreds of years.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">I suspect that before it is all said and done, there will be a dark age in Africa on the scale of the one in Europe.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I suppose we could make a case for sub-Saharan Africa being in the middle of such an age now.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We cant fix climates and we cannot impose order on chaos.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If a third of your population is dying from plague and famine, you do not have the ability to put together the stability needed to solve the problem.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><A href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,6512,763185,00.html";>http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,6512,763185,00.html</A></SPAN> <P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Doug.</SPAN> <P> <B><I>Dustin Puryear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">At 06:18 PM 12/30/2002 -0800, you wrote:<BR>>Mat:<BR>><BR>>Just a note about your tag. The dark ages were dark due to a lack of<BR>>light. There are several proposed reasons for the long winters and<BR>>dark skies, but the evidence is very firm, the dark ages were dark,<BR>>cold, and damp in Europe.<BR><BR>I believe that was one reason for the labeling of the Dark Ages. The other, <BR>and the one I learned (and now I know two!), is the loss of knowledge after <BR>the fall of the Roman Empire, and the subsequent clamping down on research <BR>and ideas that did not benefit the Church. Is this incorrect? I have seen <BR>this as the stated reason many times in various texts. Ask your wife, I'm <BR>curious.<BR><BR><BR>---<BR>Dustin Puryear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><BR>Puryear Information Technology<BR>Windows, UNIX, and IT Consulting<BR>http://www.puryear-it.com<BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>General mailing list<BR>[email protected]<BR>http://oxygen.nocdirect.com/mailman/listinfo/general_brlug.net</BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com";>Yahoo! Mail Plus</a> - Powerful. Affordable. <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com";>Sign up now</a> --0-1485246863-1041529655=:70699--
