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Totalitarian governments were the norm throughout history. I am certainly no fan of them, but aside from the late-era Greeks, the early-era Romans, and us, there are no records of open and free societies. Yet, advances happened. Granted, religious hegemonies are not the best form of government for scientific advancement, but the arts have been known to get good attention. Astronomy certainly prospered under the Chinese emperors and the South American kings. Medicine, and animal husbandry did quite well under the Egyptian pharos. Engineering has always been done either by armies or priests. From the pyramids, to the ports and roads, the Egyptians set standards that are still pretty high. The Romans were no slouches either. Both of those societies kept slaves, used forced labor and made constant war or their neighbors. The Chinese likewise used forced labor and slaves to build the Great Wall. Before we look too far down our noses at them, let's all go to the Rodeo at Angola. We can record it on the video cameras made with child labor or in the re-education factories in Asia. The type of government one lives under may affect the quality of ones life, but it can hardly affect the quality of one's thoughts. Every government throughout history has had some shining examples of heroism, bravery, high art from its citizens. I would not say that the Muslims were the greatest society in recorded history. The Hindu culture goes back eight thousand years in an unbroken line. That certainly should get a nod. China has got to be in the running. Egypt was stable far longer than the Muslim culture. However, a simple look at the arts and structures from the Muslim culture shows that at their height, they were at least as good as any others. Can a culture be repressive and harsh and still foster art? Ask Tolstoy, Raphael, or Confucius. Can a culture that owns slaves advance freedom and the light of knowledge? Ask Plato, ask George Washington, or ask Caesar Augustus. Doug Chopin Cusachs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think that is a bit exaggerated. There were good and bad moments for the elites in various places. It is important, also, to recall that even at its peak the Caliphate was, like that of the Ottomans later, a slave society, with some of the glitter of the Ante Bellum South. What freedom there was for the subject peoples resulted from the benevolence of a particular Caliph. I think much of the progress attributed to Muslim culture was a mixture of confusion of classical with later achievements and efforts to discredit Christian civilization. In Spain, for instance, the irrigation works long attributed by English writers to the Moors have now been determined by archeology to antedate the Muslim conquest. I'm not prepared to accept a society with no rights at all for the majority as "most civilized and advanced in recorded history." Choppy At 08:59 PM 1/2/03 -0600, John Hebert wrote: >I think it depends on the attitude of the Caliph in power at the time; >some were pro-science, others not. Humanity has a lot to thank Muslim >culture for; modern analytical medicine, algebra, architecture, etc. Not >all Caliphs were anti-science/anti-knowledge. At certain points in time, >the Muslim world was the most civilized and advanced in recorded history. >Sad that attitude is long gone. _______________________________________________ General mailing list [email protected] http://oxygen.nocdirect.com/mailman/listinfo/general_brlug.net Warmest Regards, Doug Riddle http://www.dougriddle.com http://fossile-project.sourceforge.net/ http://www.libranet.com -- "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the Peoples' Liberty Teeth." - George Washington -- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-1623937261-1041605428=:10054 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Totalitarian governments were the norm throughout history.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I am certainly no fan of them, but aside from the late-era Greeks, the early-era Romans, and us, there are no records of open and free societies.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yet, advances happened.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Granted, religious hegemonies are not the best form of government for scientific advancement, but the arts have been known to get good attention.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Astronomy certainly prospered under the Chinese emperors and the South American kings.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Medicine, and animal husbandry did quite well under the Egyptian pharos.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Engineering has always been done either by armies or priests.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>From the pyramids, to the ports and roads, the Egyptians set standards that are still pretty high.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The Romans were no slouches either.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Both of those societies kept slaves, used forced labor and made constant war or their neighbors.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The Chinese likewise used forced labor and slaves to build the Great Wall.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Before we look too far down our noses at them, let's all go to the Rodeo at Angola.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We can record it on the video cameras made with child labor or in the re-education factories in Asia.</FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>The type of government one lives under may affect the quality of ones life, but it can hardly affect the quality of one's thoughts.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Every government throughout history has had some shining examples of heroism, bravery, high art from its citizens.</FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>I would not say that the Muslims were the greatest society in recorded history.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The Hindu culture goes back eight thousand years in an unbroken line.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That certainly should get a nod.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>China has got to be in the running.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Egypt was stable far longer than the Muslim culture.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, a simple look at the arts and structures from the Muslim culture shows that at their height, they were at least as good as any others.</FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P> <P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Can a culture be repressive and harsh and still foster art?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Ask Tolstoy, Raphael, or Confucius.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Can a culture that owns slaves advance freedom and the light of knowledge?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Ask Plato, ask George Washington, or ask Caesar Augustus.</SPAN> <P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Doug</SPAN> <P> <B><I>Chopin Cusachs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>I think that is a bit exaggerated. There were good and bad moments for the <BR>elites in<BR>various places. It is important, also, to recall that even at its peak the <BR>Caliphate was, like<BR>that of the Ottomans later, a slave society, with some of the glitter of <BR>the Ante Bellum<BR>South. What freedom there was for the subject peoples resulted from the <BR>benevolence of<BR>a particular Caliph.<BR><BR>I think much of the progress attributed to Muslim culture was a mixture of <BR>confusion of<BR>classical with later achievements and efforts to discredit Christian <BR>civilization. In Spain,<BR>for instance, the irrigation works long attributed by English writers to <BR>the Moors have<BR>now been determined by archeology to antedate the Muslim conquest. I'm not <BR>prepared<BR>to accept a society with no rights at all for the majority as "most <BR>civilized and advanced<BR>in recorded history."<BR><BR>Choppy<BR><BR><BR>At 08:59 PM 1/2/03 -0600, John Hebert wrote:<BR>>I think it depends on the attitude of the Caliph in power at the time; <BR>>some were pro-science, others not. Humanity has a lot to thank Muslim <BR>>culture for; modern analytical medicine, algebra, architecture, etc. Not <BR>>all Caliphs were anti-science/anti-knowledge. At certain points in time, <BR>>the Muslim world was the most civilized and advanced in recorded history. <BR>>Sad that attitude is long gone.<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>General mailing list<BR>[email protected]<BR>http://oxygen.nocdirect.com/mailman/listinfo/general_brlug.net</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Warmest Regards,<BR><BR>Doug Riddle<BR> http://www.dougriddle.com<BR>http://fossile-project.sourceforge.net/<BR> http://www.libranet.com<br> -- "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the Peoples' Liberty Teeth." - George Washington --<BR><p><br><hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com";>Yahoo! Mail Plus</a> - Powerful. Affordable. <a href="http://rd.yahoo.com/mail/mailsig/*http://mailplus.yahoo.com";>Sign up now</a> --0-1623937261-1041605428=:10054--
