>> I think many folks on >> the list aren't listening to each other let alone to someone from the >> outer circle.
>That is my complaint about not just this list, but the entire project. >We >have people like Ted and Craig who are perfectly happy just sitting in >their >bubble sub-projects and doing whatever they want and you have people >like >myself who see a larger picture of what Jakarta is (or could be) and >want to I don't monitor every list, but Craig works his butt off. I'm not sure he sleeps. I think you're missing the big picture. If everyone got into the big picture none of the small stuff would get done and Jakarta would fail. He does good work that greatly contributes to Jakarta. Just not in the way you see as correct. To each their own. >see people work together more and create less duplication of exactly >the >same functionality. Yes, that statement is based on their previous >postings. Truly an indexed and searchable directory would alleviate this problem to a great degree. Better documentation would help too. If you feel motivation is a factor come up with some positive measures. A nice news story on the front page of Jakarta saying "good job so and so for taking X and making it more reusable" instead of punitive measures (like trashing them on the list). Most psychologist agree positive reinforcement is far more powerful than negative reinforcement. (I've got two stepchildren. I can provide data if you're really interested) >> Its funny I kind of agree with some (but not all) of the points that >Jon >> guy makes but he seems to want to make them in such a way that they >are >> divisive instead of providing the leadership Stefano praises him for. >> Leadership is taking the boat and sailing it and inviting others to >come >> along not sitting in the back complaining about the heading or >> proclaiming "its just going to sink and the hell with you all maybe >I'll >> quit". I hope he sees this and becomes the guy Stefano says he is. >The problem is that I feel like the boat has already capsized, sank and >rotted on the ocean floor. At this point, I'm pretty disheartened about >Jakarta...more so than I have felt in over 6 years of being here. I >have no >other way to express my unhappiness than to express it by saying it. I >feel >like I can't change things anymore and about the only person who could You see I think you could change things. The problem as I see it (and I'm just a young whipper-snapper so take it for what you will) is that you're going about it the wrong way (maybe you forgot what everyone says you taught them and maybe a young whipper-snapper like me can nudge you a bit and remind you I feel like I'm quoting some bad Christmas movie). If I was a committer and posted a change and then you reposted the commit log to this list and trashed me, I'd be prone to ignore you in the future. Try this. Propose things that will alleviate the problem that are positive and non-regulatory in nature. Like I mentioned a solution above which has helped at places I've worked in the past. Propose it, create and get others to help. (count me in I didn't know Jakarta commons had a collections package!). As you say on your Jon's fan club page shut up about it and contribute to Jakarta. For instance, someone mentioned you were working on some documentation. Maybe there is a section of code to be javadoc'd or something. Send me an email and say "Andy, pay your Jakarta taxes. I'm working on this and I've got soo much to do, can you research and javadoc this code right here and send me the patch". Maybe I'd tell you where to stick your request and you'd send it to someone else. Someone would do it. That's leadership. You're not providing that. Most folks who don't contribute but use Jakarta products regularly are either too scared (of getting a post like some of yours) or have no idea where to start. When someone writes me saying "Where can I help", I might point them to some documentation, but I say HERE...here is something that needs doing. On most Jakarta projects this doesn't happen. Serve by example, don't just spout negativity. Next, I don't agree with you that all duplication is bad. I think it would be good if LogKit and Log4J were one (personal opinion), but I don't think that everything is a common library. There problems are SOOOOOO common that if they really did sink ships then there would be NO successful software organizations at all. >>is >>Sam, but I am not seeing him take the reigns in such a way to rebuild >>the >>ship...only to try to a lifeboat together over the next few years... >If you look at how Scarab is run, we are pretty damn successful at this >point with regards to building and managing a strong developer >community >around it. And it isn't even a Jakarta project. I personally see the >model I >have used for Scarab as pretty close to right way to run projects. So use it. To be honest I don't see your comparison. Jakarta pulls together several Scarab sized or bigger projects. Its easier at the project level. I don't disagree with everything you're saying and I think many people here don't. Its your methods. Secondly you're not being part of a solution you're adding to the "problem" if not creating it. At the macro level you have to stand back a bit and let the secretary spend 30 cents too much on the paperclips. After all its the bigger picture. This is a forum where not everyone will ever agree with you. You have to let them do things the wrong way. Express disagreement but stick to the facts and back them up. It looks to me like you're mostly standing in the center of the room screeming and wondering why people are staring at you with their fingers in their ears. > Not that it is a contest, but I can guarantee I feel more crushed than > you. That my friend is a personality difference. In perspective I had a lot of crappy things happen to me (and my country) last year. While Jakarta and really the greater open source movement is important to me but nothing, less my family, is so important to me that I could ever be as crushed as you are Jon even over the most tragic events I can imagine (less my family). (And we're nowhere near that) What I mean is you are how you choose to be. I hope you come around. > -jon -Andy -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
