Fine. You are welcome to immerse yourself with character design, and I am happy to stick with language design. You did interject yourself into a discussion on introducing special characters into J and what I responding to is that interjection.
> This way, mathematicians could use "sigma" (I can't > find the glyph on my keyboard...) for +/, English > language bigots could use "sum", and certain other > types could use "AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray", > depending on their respective whims. I recommend that this > skinnability be dubbed "Babel". Here's the thing. Even if sigma majuscule were a symbol on the keyboard, to introduce that is to detract from one of the main tenets of J (and APL), namely adverbs (operators). Once I understand what +/ does, I would have a pretty good understanding of what */, times/, or/, and/, max/ etc. do. But if what I know is sum or sigma or AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray, how do I know how to multiply the items of an array? How am I supposed to know that */ is PI, or that +/ and */ are strongly related? Adverbs are very efficient. If you know m verb symbols and n adverb symbols, you know how to do m*n things. If you know m verb symbols and n "sum" or "sigma" like symbols, you just know how to do m+n things. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:12 Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL To: General forum <[email protected]> Cc: 'Geoff Streeter' <[email protected]>, Adrian Smith <[email protected]>, Alexander Skomorokhov <[email protected]> > Hi, Roger. > > It sounds like you're letting the tool (IE) drive design, rather > than the other way around. A few comments: > > 1. Cut/paste: In Linux, you merely highlight the desired text, > with a mouse click or swipe, then do > the middle-button > click to paste. No need for any typing > (Ctrl-c). I admit that > this is a small potatoes issue. > > 2. IE is on the way out, according to a few recent erag articles. > So, perhaps all your problems with it will go > away, when time > gets full. > > 3. I was not proposing any changes to J in my message. > What I was saying was that the problems of > entering, displaying (and printing) unicode > characters, including APL, > are finally over. Well, at least in Linux... > > 4. What might fit in nicely is a user-defined "skin" for J, > acting as a > session > manager in lieu of the J session manager, > much as various media > players allow a user to customize their > player with software that > presents the player's user interface in a > different way. > > This would leave the existing J engine in its > current form, yet let > users > write their scripts in any format they > choose, and display the results > in any format they desire. Yet, the formal > interface to the engine > would remain unchanged (I think), and J > scripts could be exchanged > as always in a uniform manner. > > This way, mathematicians could use "sigma" (I > can't find the glyph > on my > keyboard...) for +/, English > language bigots could use "sum", and > certain other > types could use > "AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray", depending on > their > respective whims. I recommend that this > skinnability be dubbed "Babel". > > Rockless Bob > > Roger Hui wrote: > >> This is an iota; Alt-i: ? > >> This is an omega; Alt-w: ? > >> This is a transpose; Alt-Shift-6: ? > >> > > > > So here I am in Windows, where the equivalents are: > > iota; ctrl-i > > omega; ctrl-w > > transpose; ctrl-shift-6 > > > > Fine. So now I want to copy some text in my Dyalog > session. > > I highlight the text and my fingers, without any intervention from > > my brain, hit ctrl-c. Oops. (ctrl-c is the set > intersection> symbol, for you non-APL-aficionados.) > > > > The main point I want to make is that J has 7-bit > > ASCII characters and you'd have to have rocks in > > your head to introduce special characters into J. > > The following quotes from > > http://aplteam2.com/aplwiki/BrowserTest > > are instructive: > > > > All versions of Internet Explorer get it wrong. > > > > Many browser under Windows are capable of > > displaying a wide range of APL symbols. However, > > at least some symbols are missed. Favorites are > > ⌿⍀⍝⍎⍕⍪ and the symbols for NAND and NOR. > > > > I am not interested in discussions about character set > > issues and how it's a solved problem, etc. Dyalog has > > indeed done a magnificent job (miraculous, even) with > > the APL characters. But: the bottom line is that J > > does not have a character set problem and let's keep > > it that way. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> > > Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:19 > > Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL > > To: General forum <[email protected]>, Morten Kromberg > <[email protected]>, 'Geoff Streeter' <[email protected]>, > Alexander Skomorokhov <[email protected]>, Adrian Smith > <[email protected]>> > > > >> I'm finally fairly happy with APL text and LaTeX, vi, > >> web browser, and APL windows now, thanks > >> to the following: > >> > >> - Geoff Streeter (and probably others) at > >> Dyalog, They have created a Unicode-based > >> APL system including standard mods to > the XFree86 > >> (Linux windowing) configuration that > let me enter > >> APL characters directly into the APL > session,>> using keystrokes like these. > If you don't > >> like the > >> keystrokes, you can customize them to > your > >> own whim: > >> > >> This is an iota; Alt-i: ? > >> This is an omega; Alt-w: ? > >> This is a transpose; Alt-Shift-6: ? > >> > >> What I find entirely delightful about > this > >> approach is that > >> the keyboard changes also work > EXACTLY the > >> same way in vi, > >> web browsers, etc. I can > copy/cut/paste APL > >> text across > >> apps with no problems. > >> > >> - Adrian Smith, for his APL385 font. > >> > >> - Alexander Skomorokhov, who told me about > xelatex and > >> its ability to crank out APL > with no fuss. > >> > >> The above red text was directly copy/pasted from a pdf file > >> produced with xelatex, from this text, which I tinkered from slides > >> for a talk I'm giving at NYU on March 24. The red text is what > >> makes the APL happen: > >> > >> \documentclass[handout]{beamer} > >> \usepackage{beamerthemesplit} > >> > >> \usepackage{fontspec} > >> \setmainfont{Arial} > >> \setmonofont{APL385} > >> > >> \title{Tacit Parallelism} > >> \author{Robert Bernecky} > >> \institute{Snake Island Research Inc} > >> \date{\today} > >> \usecolortheme{default} > >> > >> \begin{document} > >> This is an iota; Alt-i: {\tt ?} > >> > >> This is an omega; Alt-w: {\tt ?} > >> > >> This is a transpose; Alt-Shift-6: {\tt ?} > >> \end{document} > >> > >> I'm using Linux, but Dyalog also has a BillWare(tm) > >> version of their unicode system. > >> > >> I'm not totally happy with Adrian's font, as I don't think > >> it has the balance (if that's the right word) and elegance of > >> Joey Tuttle's APL fonts, and his font seems to pick > >> typefaces more or less at random. E.g., the dollar sign in > >> the following looks OK here, but in the pdf file, it is > >> clearly out of place with the remainder of the text: > >> > >> x =. 2 3 $ 4 > >> > >> My thanks to all for making life much simpler. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> Don Watson wrote: > >> > >>> Raul > >>> > >>> The non-ASCII characters were a bit of a mess. This was a > >>> > >> first attempt at > >> > >>> something and I am not used to creating such script. I hand > >>> > >> wrote the > >> > >>> non-ASCII characters onto the printed page and scanned the > >>> > >> result into a PDF > >> > >>> file. > >>> > >>> J programs would still be transferable, because there is no > >>> > >> change to > >> > >>> storage format - the two ASCII characters are still stored. > >>> > >> The change is > >> > >>> only when those characters are output. > >>> > >>> Don > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Raul Miller" <[email protected]> > >>> To: "General forum" <[email protected]> > >>> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:20 AM > >>> Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Don Watson > >>> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>> http://bcompanion.com/Compromisepdf.pdf > >>>> > >>>> > >>> Is there a reason you put this in a pdf ? I ask, > because > >>> > >> I recently > >> > >>> uninstalled adobe's reader because of a security flaw. > >>> > >>> http://www.adobe.com/support/security/advisories/apsa09-01.html > >>> > >>> I am installing the new version of adobe now, but if you needed > >>> to use pdf because regular text was inadequate for your proposal, > >>> I think that says something about the proposal itself -- it would > >>> mean -- for example -- that you are proposing that J > >>> > >> programs should > >> > >>> not be transmittable using regular email. > >>> > >>> ... > >>> > >>> Ok, I have downloaded the proposal now. The hard part, > >>> > >> obviously,> is the characters themselves. (Personally, > I > >> could read the > >> > >>> J code but had problems understanding the "compromise > >>> equivalent verb". I am not sure if my problems were because > >>> of the ways the intended characters were rendered or whether > >>> my problems in understanding were because I was > expected to > >>> understand some character(s) which I did not understand.) > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
