> Roger, I made remarks along those lines many moons ago, > about the power of adverbs and conjunctions, > so please don't feel you have to preach to me about such things.
All the more surprising then that you would say what you said about sigma and sum and AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray. I am humor challenged. I can not tell the difference. If you can insert things like <dont_take_seriously> </dont_take_seriously> that would help me a lot. Otherwise I may so enclose the whole thing by mistake. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009 14:30 Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL To: General forum <[email protected]> Cc: Geoff Streeter <[email protected]>, Adrian Smith <[email protected]>, Alexander Skomorokhov <[email protected]> > Roger, I made remarks along those lines many moons ago, > about the power of adverbs and conjunctions, > so please don't feel you have to preach to me about such things. > This is from my APL93 paper, "The Role of APL and > J in High-Performance Computation", but I'm relatively sure > I have said such things much earlier than that: > > "A semantically rich language is of immense value because > knowledge in one area benefits another -- learning ten verbs > and twenty adverbs gives the potential for specifying 200 > different actions. Similarly, a computer language with > conjunctions and adverbs offers richness of expression > to the programmer." > > What I am trying to point out is that,as you noted, > there is no need to change J. However, > if a front end, or skin, can improve the lot > of those who are either unwilling to learn new > notations, or who are more comfortable with a different > presentation of it, why not make it easy for them to > create an interface that pleases them? > It might even attract new J users. > > As for the Babel (or Babylon, or perhaps Babble On) > paragraph, there was some humor intended there. > Please don't take it seriously. > Bob > > Roger Hui wrote: > > Fine. You are welcome to immerse yourself with character > > design, and I am happy to stick with language design. > > You did interject yourself into a discussion on introducing > > special characters into J and what I responding to is that > > interjection. > > > > > >> This way, mathematicians could use "sigma" (I can't > >> find the glyph on my keyboard...) for +/, English > >> language bigots could use "sum", and certain other > >> types could use "AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray", > >> depending on their respective whims. I recommend that this > >> skinnability be dubbed "Babel". > >> > > > > Here's the thing. Even if sigma majuscule were a symbol > on > > the keyboard, to introduce that is to detract from one of > > the main tenets of J (and APL), namely adverbs (operators). > > Once I understand what +/ does, I would have a pretty good > > understanding of what */, times/, or/, and/, max/ etc. do. > > But if what I know is sum or sigma or > > AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray, how do I know > > how to multiply the items of an array? How am I supposed > > to know that */ is PI, or that +/ and */ are strongly related? > > > > Adverbs are very efficient. If you know m verb symbols > > and n adverb symbols, you know how to do m*n things. > > If you know m verb symbols and n "sum" or "sigma" like > > symbols, you just know how to do m+n things. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> > > Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:12 > > Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL > > To: General forum <[email protected]> > > Cc: 'Geoff Streeter' <[email protected]>, Adrian Smith > <[email protected]>, Alexander Skomorokhov > <[email protected]>> > > > >> Hi, Roger. > >> > >> It sounds like you're letting the tool (IE) drive design, rather > >> than the other way around. A few comments: > >> > >> 1. Cut/paste: In Linux, you merely highlight the > desired text, > >> with a mouse click or swipe, > then do > >> the middle-button > >> click to paste. No need for any > typing > >> (Ctrl-c). I admit that > >> this is a small potatoes issue. > >> > >> 2. IE is on the way out, according to a few recent erag articles. > >> So, perhaps all your problems with it > will go > >> away, when time > >> gets full. > >> > >> 3. I was not proposing any changes to J in my message. > >> What I was saying was that the > problems of > >> entering, displaying (and printing) unicode > >> characters, including APL, > >> are finally over. Well, at least in > Linux...>> > >> 4. What might fit in nicely is a user-defined "skin" for J, > >> acting as a > >> session > >> manager in lieu of the J session > manager, > >> much as various media > >> players allow a user to customize > their > >> player with software that > >> presents the player's user interface > in a > >> different way. > >> > >> This would leave the existing J > engine in its > >> current form, yet let > >> users > >> write their scripts in any format > they > >> choose, and display the results > >> in any format they desire. Yet, the > formal > >> interface to the engine > >> would remain unchanged (I think), and > J > >> scripts could be exchanged > >> as always in a uniform manner. > >> > >> This way, mathematicians could use > "sigma" (I > >> can't find the glyph > >> on my > >> keyboard...) for +/, > English > >> language bigots could use "sum", and > >> certain other > >> types could use > >> "AddUpTheElementsOfTheArgumentArray", depending on > >> their > >> respective whims. I recommend > that this > >> skinnability be dubbed "Babel". > >> > >> Rockless Bob > >> > >> Roger Hui wrote: > >> > >>>> This is an iota; Alt-i: ? > >>>> This is an omega; Alt-w: ? > >>>> This is a transpose; Alt-Shift-6: ? > >>>> > >>>> > >>> So here I am in Windows, where the equivalents are: > >>> iota; ctrl-i > >>> omega; ctrl-w > >>> transpose; ctrl-shift-6 > >>> > >>> Fine. So now I want to copy some text in my Dyalog > >>> > >> session. > >> > >>> I highlight the text and my fingers, without any > intervention from > >>> my brain, hit ctrl-c. Oops. (ctrl-c is the set > >>> > >> intersection> symbol, for you non-APL-aficionados.) > >> > >>> The main point I want to make is that J has 7-bit > >>> ASCII characters and you'd have to have rocks in > >>> your head to introduce special characters into J. > >>> The following quotes from > >>> http://aplteam2.com/aplwiki/BrowserTest > >>> are instructive: > >>> > >>> All versions of Internet Explorer get it wrong. > >>> > >>> Many browser under Windows are capable of > >>> displaying a wide range of APL symbols. However, > >>> at least some symbols are missed. Favorites are > >>> ⌿⍀⍝⍎⍕⍪ and the symbols for NAND and NOR. > >>> > >>> I am not interested in discussions about character set > >>> issues and how it's a solved problem, etc. Dyalog has > >>> indeed done a magnificent job (miraculous, even) with > >>> the APL characters. But: the bottom line is that J > >>> does not have a character set problem and let's keep > >>> it that way. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Robert Bernecky <[email protected]> > >>> Date: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:19 > >>> Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL > >>> To: General forum <[email protected]>, Morten > Kromberg > >>> > >> <[email protected]>, 'Geoff Streeter' > <[email protected]>, > >> Alexander Skomorokhov <[email protected]>, Adrian Smith > >> <[email protected]>> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>> I'm finally fairly happy with APL text and LaTeX, vi, > >>>> web browser, and APL windows now, thanks > >>>> to the following: > >>>> > >>>> - Geoff Streeter (and probably others) at > >>>> Dyalog, They have created a > Unicode-based > >>>> APL system including standard > mods to > >>>> > >> the XFree86 > >> > >>>> (Linux windowing) > configuration that > >>>> > >> let me enter > >> > >>>> APL characters directly into > the APL > >>>> > >> session,>> using keystrokes like > these. > >> If you don't > >> > >>>> like the > >>>> keystrokes, you can customize > them to > >>>> > >> your > >> > >>>> own whim: > >>>> > >>>> This is an iota; Alt-i: ? > >>>> This is an omega; Alt-w: ? > >>>> This is a transpose; Alt-Shift-6: ? > >>>> > >>>> What I find entirely > delightful about > >>>> > >> this > >> > >>>> approach is that > >>>> the keyboard changes also > work > >>>> > >> EXACTLY the > >> > >>>> same way in vi, > >>>> web browsers, etc. I can > >>>> > >> copy/cut/paste APL > >> > >>>> text across > >>>> apps with no problems. > >>>> > >>>> - Adrian Smith, for his APL385 font. > >>>> > >>>> - Alexander Skomorokhov, who told me > about > >>>> > >> xelatex and > >> > >>>> its ability to crank > out APL > >>>> > >> with no fuss. > >> > >>>> The above red text was directly copy/pasted from a > pdf file > >>>> produced with xelatex, from this text, which I tinkered > from slides > >>>> for a talk I'm giving at NYU on March 24. The red text is what > >>>> makes the APL happen: > >>>> > >>>> \documentclass[handout]{beamer} > >>>> \usepackage{beamerthemesplit} > >>>> > >>>> \usepackage{fontspec} > >>>> \setmainfont{Arial} > >>>> \setmonofont{APL385} > >>>> > >>>> \title{Tacit Parallelism} > >>>> \author{Robert Bernecky} > >>>> \institute{Snake Island Research Inc} > >>>> \date{\today} > >>>> \usecolortheme{default} > >>>> > >>>> \begin{document} > >>>> This is an iota; Alt-i: {\tt ?} > >>>> > >>>> This is an omega; Alt-w: {\tt ?} > >>>> > >>>> This is a transpose; Alt-Shift-6: {\tt ?} > >>>> \end{document} > >>>> > >>>> I'm using Linux, but Dyalog also has a BillWare(tm) > >>>> version of their unicode system. > >>>> > >>>> I'm not totally happy with Adrian's font, as I don't think > >>>> it has the balance (if that's the right word) and elegance of > >>>> Joey Tuttle's APL fonts, and his font seems to pick > >>>> typefaces more or less at random. E.g., the dollar sign in > >>>> the following looks OK here, but in the pdf file, it is > >>>> clearly out of place with the remainder of the text: > >>>> > >>>> x =. > 2 3 $ 4 > >>>> > >>>> My thanks to all for making life much simpler. > >>>> > >>>> Bob > >>>> > >>>> Don Watson wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Raul > >>>>> > >>>>> The non-ASCII characters were a bit of a mess. This was a > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> first attempt at > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> something and I am not used to creating such script. I > hand > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> wrote the > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> non-ASCII characters onto the printed page and scanned the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> result into a PDF > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> file. > >>>>> > >>>>> J programs would still be transferable, because there is > no > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> change to > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> storage format - the two ASCII characters are still > stored. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> The change is > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> only when those characters are output. > >>>>> > >>>>> Don > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Raul Miller" <[email protected]> > >>>>> To: "General forum" <[email protected]> > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:20 AM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] J with APL > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Don Watson > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> http://bcompanion.com/Compromisepdf.pdf > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> Is there a reason you put this in a pdf ? I ask, > >>>>> > >> because > >> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> I recently > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> uninstalled adobe's reader because of a security flaw. > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.adobe.com/support/security/advisories/apsa09-01.html > >>>>> > >>>>> I am installing the new version of adobe now, but if you needed > >>>>> to use pdf because regular text was inadequate for your > proposal,>>>>> I think that says something about the proposal > itself -- it would > >>>>> mean -- for example -- that you are proposing that J > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> programs should > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> not be transmittable using regular email. > >>>>> > >>>>> ... > >>>>> > >>>>> Ok, I have downloaded the proposal now. The hard > part, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> obviously,> is the characters themselves. > (Personally, > >>>> > >> I > >> > >>>> could read the > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> J code but had problems understanding the "compromise > >>>>> equivalent verb". I am not sure if my problems were > because>>>>> of the ways the intended characters were rendered > or whether > >>>>> my problems in understanding were because I was > >>>>> > >> expected to > >> > >>>>> understand some character(s) which I did not understand.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
