On 26 May 2013 15:37, Michał Górny <mgo...@gentoo.org> wrote: > On Sun, 26 May 2013 00:14:36 +0800 > Ben de Groot <yng...@gentoo.org> wrote: > >> Systemd is diametrically opposed to the FreeBSD, customization, >> extreme configurability, and top-notch developer community aspects of >> that. Systemd upstream developers have made it abundantly clear they >> are not interested in working with Gentoo developers to see to the >> needs of source-based distros. They stand for vertical integration >> instead of customization and configurability. >> >> And you misunderstood: it is systemd that is aggressively opposed to >> Gentoo. But apparently that doesn't bother some of our developers and >> Gentoo is becoming more and more welcoming to it. > > By the way, we should really keep the separation between systemd itself > and the unit files. I agree that systemd is not the best thing we could > have. But the unit file format is, er, good enough -- and has > the advantage of eventually taking a lot of work from our shoulders. > > Although some of the ideas (esp. wrt targets) are near to crazy > and awfully hard to understand, that's what we have and trying to do > something else is eventually going to make people's lives harder. > > We should *really* work on supporting the unit files within OpenRC > (aside to init.d files). That's a way to at least: > > a) reuse the work that has been done upstream already (when it was > done), > > b) have common service names and startup behavior in all relevant > distros (which is really beneficial to the users). > > Considering the design of OpenRC itself, it wouldn't be *that hard*. > Actually, a method similar to one used in oldnet would simply work. > That is, symlinking init.d files to a common 'systemd-wrapper' > executable which would parse the unit files.
I think this idea actually makes sense. Re-using upstream work seems a logical idea, and could ease maintenance. Of course the issue is whether the OpenRC devs see any benefit in this. > On the completely different topic, I agree that systemd design is far > from the best and the way it's maintained is just bad. I was interested > in the past in creating an improved alternative using compatible file > format and libraries, while choosing a better design, improving > portability and keeping stuff less integrated. > > But the fact is -- I doubt it will make sense, much like the eudev > project. And it will take much more work, and give much less > appreciation. > > First of all, working on it will require a lot of work. Seeing how > large systemd become and how rapidly it is developing, establishing > a good alternative (even dropping such useless parts as the Journal) > will take at least twice that work. > > Then, it will require people working on it. People who know the details > of various systems and who are willing to spend their time on it. > And there wouldn't be much of people really willing to work on it. > > The systemd haters will refuse the project because of its resemblance > to systemd. The systemd lovers will refuse it because of its > resemblance to systemd. And the OpenRC lovers will want to design it > to resemble OpenRC which is just pointless. Then the few remaining > people will find systemd 'good enough'. > > And even if there are a few people who will want to work on it, > and design a 'good systemd', they wouldn't get much appreciation. > Fedora definitely won't care for it. It would have to be really > definitely awesome for most Linux distros to even notice it. > And I doubt *BSD people would be interested in something external. > > It is possible that systemd upstream will steal a few patches or ideas > from it. Yet they will never apply any of the really important changes, > so the project will have to be maintained indefinitely. The only hope > for it would be to win over systemd users which I doubt will happen. > > So there's a lot of work, no fame or money in it, and most likely more > work being the only future. Anyone volunteering? I agree it would be pretty hard to carve out a niche for this. Personally I would see more in runit. -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer
