On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 08:59:40AM +0000, Peter Stuge wrote:
> Daniel Campbell wrote:
> > On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 12:18:04AM +0100, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > I'd like to establish the following changes to the mailing lists:
> > > 
> > > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> > > initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
> > 
> > I don't think this plan will have the effect you're going for,
> I agree, and I'll double down on my previous comment on this proposal:
> I consider the proposal to be the wrong solution.
> > but let's be honest here: the "RFC" is just a formality; the decision's
> > already been made.
> I hope that a mere proposal doesn't automatically mean policy change.

If proposals come from a select couple of people, there are high odds
that it's been discussed privately and the relevant people've been
convinced or otherwise pushed to implement the change. By the time it
hits the list, any cricitism is met with "too bad, we're doing it
anyway". I'm not sure how new you are to Gentoo, but it's been this way
since at least 2012.

> > If the "real leaders" of Gentoo want to divide and fragment the
> > community, it's their prerogative.
> When there is a request for comments, there should also be comments. :)
> Far too many fall into the simple trap that is tribalism, and I'd like
> to encourage everyone on this list to not be that kind of person,
> because there really is no "us and them", there is only "us".

I think the plan to split mailing lists serves as a way to insulate
developers from the effects of their decisions. Anyone with an
incongenial tone will have their voice bit revoked and their mail will
be dropped or rejected. It will likely be a silent rejection, so the
fallout is minimal. The plan itself is a manifestation of tribalism.
The "us" is a select group of people who've been blessed by mgorny and
friends.  Everyone else is deemed a "do nothing" or some other insult,
regardless of their history or efforts with the distribution. Yes,
talking about that is ugly, but it's the truth. I've been on the
receiving end of it multiple times and have been witness to it many
others. It shows up in just about every corner of Gentoo. Creating a
technical schism won't fix it.

> > As we tell users who do something they're not supposed to: You get
> > to keep the pieces.
> Well, let's see what happens, now that both developers and
> non-developers have clearly spoken out *against* this proposal.

I'm not holding my breath on any positive change, but we'll see. It's
not like we have a choice in the matter. I guess we'll have to subscribe
to yet another mailing list if we want to stay informed. Maybe in a
year's time, we'll have gentoo-dev-expert as well, so the Chosen Ones
don't have to deal with developers they don't like.

This is my last mail in this thread. I've made my points and know they
will fall on deaf ears. You're not wrong in your approach; I don't share
that faith, is all. So I hope you don't interpret this as me yelling at

> Kind regards
> //Peter

Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer, Trustee, Treasurer
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