Dan and Andrew I share Andrew's worry about oxygen depletion if there are too many nutrients but I hope that because the sinks are moving oxygen-rich surface water downwards and then letting it come part of the way up we should be providing more.
I share Dan's concern about a network of cables. You might be able to use them in shallow water like the Caribbean where there is nasty dead zone at the mouth of the Mississipi but not in deep oceans. They would be a dreadful obstruction to one another and to other traffic. It is also hard to provide cable attachment points on a floppy structure. This is why I want to let the sinks drift round gyres and merely adjust their radius from the gyre centre by tweaking which side releases water. I did my very best to explain to the Atmocean people the requirement to match the load presented by any wave device to incoming waves but they were very resistant. During the upward stroke their buoys are trying to lift an enormous inertia of the long column of water in the hose. The side entry valve system makes the sink look like the next bit of sea for half the time and we know that wave-to-wave energy transfer is very efficient. I can adjust my skirt depth but this is to allow the units to be moved over shallow water. I would have expected that since the deep water has had a long time to mix there would not be all that much variation in the nutrient concentration. It would be very useful to have pointers to any data you have. I am also keen on gentle supply rates of the right blend of natural nutrients over long periods. Stephen Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design School of Engineering and Electronics University of Edinburgh Mayfield Road Edinburgh EH9 3JL Scotland tel +44 131 650 5704 fax +44 131 650 5702 Mobile 07795 203 195 [email protected] http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs Andrew Lockley wrote: > The more you remove the micro and macro nutrient limitations from > phytoplankton growth, the more you make it likely that oxygen becomes > the limiting factor - ie. that all the available oxygen has been used > up. This is likely to lead to the creation or extension of 'dead > zones' or anoxic regions in the ocean, together with consequential > disruption to the ecosystem, and potential methane creation. > > It's this kind of effect which, I understand, worries ETC group and > others. (See Chan et al, 2008) > > I'm far from a marine biologist myself, and I'm raising the issue > simply to encourage caution, rather than to claim expertise. > > A > > 2009/12/28 Dan Whaley <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > > Steve, > > In talking to Dave Karl a few years ago who was testing Phil > Kithil's tube, it seemed like a core problem was trying to select > for a depth where you had more nutrients (P, N) than CO2, so there > was a net gain... since carbon is also greater at depth. Also-- > Phil seemed to think he would keep the tubes equidistant from each > other with a huge network of underwater cables... which seemed > logistically (as well as aesthetically) problematic. > > Curious as to your thoughts in these areas... > > D > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Stephen Salter > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Hi All > > The oceans are a big thermal store so the scheme would give us > time for > a quiet think. However we can bring nutrients up to the photic > layers > and grow more phytoplankton giving more dimethyl sulphide for > cloud > nuclei and converting lots of CO2 to non acidic biomass, some > of which > we can eat. > > There is a paper called /Hurricanes carbon and fish and a > picture called > /MacNeill downtube in the /Hurricanes folder at the site below my > signature. /Chlorophyll comparison shows how empty most of the > oceans > are for most of the time. Click through at about one a second > for a > month-by-month animation. We need lots of permanent, private > la Nina events. > > Stephen > > > Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design > School of Engineering and Electronics > University of Edinburgh > Mayfield Road > Edinburgh EH9 3JL > Scotland > tel +44 131 650 5704 > fax +44 131 650 5702 > Mobile 07795 203 195 > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs <http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/%7Eshs> > > > > Mike MacCracken wrote: > > Just a note that while pumping heat down into the ocean can > lead to > > local cooling, storing heat in the ocean is adding and retaining > > energy, so will eventually emerge as warming. And, of > course, it will > > contribute to sea level rise. Thus, while a local effort of > this type > > to help limit hurricane intensification may be a good trade, > it is not > > likely to be a global cure for the system (unless one can > really pull > > the GHG concentrations down in other ways so heat from the > ocean would > > moderate the rate of cooling—as it does now during winter). > > > > Mike MacCracken > > > > > > On 12/28/09 1:34 AM, "[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>" <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > Hello, I'm new here and I expect to make a few blunders > until I am > > better acquainted with previous discussions. I am a retired > > physicist and have some leadership role in the Sierra Club. > > > > The Salter Sink is an excellent concept for raising cold > water to > > the surface. the area that needs design attention is the > injection > > system at the bottom of the tube. With careful design, > it will > > raise probably ten times as much cold water as is pumped > down. > > This design work is quite easy. > > > > Next, I had never considered the advantage of the > wave-driven pump > > as a way to cool the ocean, rather as a way to raise > nutrients to > > the surface to increase biological production. Most of > the ocean > > surface world-wide is limited in production by > inadequate nitrate > > and phosphate rather than iron. Some good places for > hurricane > > control are also good for placement of "ocean farms" fed > by wave > > pumps. For example, the North Atlantic Gyre region, also > known as > > the Sargasso Sea. > > > > I believe if somebody will check the economic potential of > > pump-fed sea farms in some areas such as the horse > latitudes, it > > will be found that the Salter pumps will pay for > themselves and > > return a handsome profit. > > > > My thought-- it isn't necessary to remove the pump > structures > > before they encounter storms--if they are lowered below the > > surface by about 100 meters, then they are completely > sheltered > > from the storm above. > > > > I can imagine a Salter pump connected to a lattice > structure that > > spreads over an area of sea around the pump. Kelp or other > > suitable plants are anchored to the lattice. The "farm" > provides a > > sea pasture in which farm animals are grown and > harvested for market. > > > > Ernie Rogers > > Pleasant Grove, Utah > > Phone 801-368-4902 > > > > In a message dated 12/27/2009 6:02:04 P.M. Mountain > Standard Time, > > [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> writes: > > > > John and list: > > > > I agree that this was an important interview for > advancing > > geoengineering (Fareed Zakaria is one of my favorite > > writers/analysts/interviewers). My main objection > was that > > Fareed or > > his show producers seemed to not be aware of the > limitations > > of SRM. By > > this I mean that the fundamental causation agent - > excess CO2 > > - was > > ignored, not mentioned once. Greg Lau's message to > the list just > > earlier on the need to protect against ocean > acidification was > > never > > hinted at. (More tomorrow on that.) > > > > The end of the twenty minutes was on Myrhvold's > firms focus on > > investing in inventions - which he says only his new > firm is > > doing > > (emphasizing this is not the same as venture capital > - which > > he also > > claimed has revolutionized modern American (world?) > business). > > > > I wish I knew whether Myrhvold himself was working > on CO2 > > removal as > > well as his SO2 approach. The site also has quite a > bit on the > > Salton > > Sink concept (see > > > > http://www.intvenlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Salter-Sink-white-paper-300dpi1.pdf). > > > > Also see http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=338 > for added > > material on > > geoengineering. > > > > Ron > > > > > > John Nissen wrote: > > > Hi all > > > > > > Have you seen this? Best case for SRM in Arctic > I've seen! > > > > > > Inventor Nathan Myhrvold describes "space hose" > for getting > > aerosols > > > into stratosphere - and he's done the modelling to > show it > > could be used > > > at the Arctic, to cool whole hemisphere, without > disrupting > > weather (see > > > about 9 minutes in). "Cooling the Arctic shuts of > a whole lot of > > > tipping points." It shows incredible promise, but > governments > > aren't > > > running to him - so far. > > > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/podcasts/fareedzakaria/site/2009/12/20/gps.podcast.12.20.cnn > > > > > > > > > > > "Suppressing the only technology that could get us > out of this > > > pickle..." would be plain silly. > > > > > > He argues (as nobody I've seen to argue before), > that even > > emissions > > > reduction to zero overnight, would not solve the > problem of > > global > > > warming, because about 20% CO2 stays in atmosphere for > > thousands of years. > > > > > > "Geoengineering has to be part of the debate". "We > have to > > examine the > > > options". "You can't rule these things out." > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > You received this message because you are > subscribed to the > > Google Groups "geoengineering" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected] > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]>. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > > > Version: 9.0.722 / Virus Database: 270.14.121/2589 > - Release > > Date: 12/27/09 02:18:00 > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed > to the > > Google Groups "geoengineering" group. > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected] > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]>. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to > the Google > > Groups "geoengineering" group. > > To post to this group, send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected] > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]>. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google > > Groups "geoengineering" group. > > To post to this group, send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected] > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]>. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "geoengineering" group. > To post to this group, send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]>. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "geoengineering" group. > To post to this group, send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]>. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "geoengineering" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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