Steve, "Raw" ocean nutrient data is available at: http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/OC5/WOD09/pr_wod09.html
Gridded data is available at: http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/OC5/WOA05/pr_woa05.html Graphical representations of nutrient and oxygen fields are available at: http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/OC5/WOA05F/woa05f.html Best, Ken ___________________________________________________ Ken Caldeira Carnegie Institution Dept of Global Ecology 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA [email protected] http://dge.stanford.edu/DGE/CIWDGE/labs/caldeiralab +1 650 704 7212; fax: +1 650 462 5968 On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:54 AM, Stephen Salter <[email protected]> wrote: > Dan and Andrew > > I share Andrew's worry about oxygen depletion if there are too many > nutrients but I hope that because the sinks are moving oxygen-rich > surface water downwards and then letting it come part of the way up we > should be providing more. > > I share Dan's concern about a network of cables. You might be able to > use them in shallow water like the Caribbean where there is nasty dead > zone at the mouth of the Mississipi but not in deep oceans. They would > be a dreadful obstruction to one another and to other traffic. It is > also hard to provide cable attachment points on a floppy structure. > This is why I want to let the sinks drift round gyres and merely adjust > their radius from the gyre centre by tweaking which side releases water. > > I did my very best to explain to the Atmocean people the requirement to > match the load presented by any wave device to incoming waves but they > were very resistant. During the upward stroke their buoys are trying to > lift an enormous inertia of the long column of water in the hose. The > side entry valve system makes the sink look like the next bit of sea for > half the time and we know that wave-to-wave energy transfer is very > efficient. > > I can adjust my skirt depth but this is to allow the units to be moved > over shallow water. I would have expected that since the deep water has > had a long time to mix there would not be all that much variation in the > nutrient concentration. It would be very useful to have pointers to any > data you have. I am also keen on gentle supply rates of the right blend > of natural nutrients over long periods. > > Stephen > > > Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design > School of Engineering and Electronics > University of Edinburgh > Mayfield Road > Edinburgh EH9 3JL > Scotland > tel +44 131 650 5704 > fax +44 131 650 5702 > Mobile 07795 203 195 > [email protected] > http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs <http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/%7Eshs> > > > > Andrew Lockley wrote: > > The more you remove the micro and macro nutrient limitations from > > phytoplankton growth, the more you make it likely that oxygen becomes > > the limiting factor - ie. that all the available oxygen has been used > > up. This is likely to lead to the creation or extension of 'dead > > zones' or anoxic regions in the ocean, together with consequential > > disruption to the ecosystem, and potential methane creation. > > > > It's this kind of effect which, I understand, worries ETC group and > > others. (See Chan et al, 2008) > > > > I'm far from a marine biologist myself, and I'm raising the issue > > simply to encourage caution, rather than to claim expertise. > > > > A > > > > 2009/12/28 Dan Whaley <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected] > >> > > > > Steve, > > > > In talking to Dave Karl a few years ago who was testing Phil > > Kithil's tube, it seemed like a core problem was trying to select > > for a depth where you had more nutrients (P, N) than CO2, so there > > was a net gain... since carbon is also greater at depth. Also-- > > Phil seemed to think he would keep the tubes equidistant from each > > other with a huge network of underwater cables... which seemed > > logistically (as well as aesthetically) problematic. > > > > Curious as to your thoughts in these areas... > > > > D > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Stephen Salter > > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > Hi All > > > > The oceans are a big thermal store so the scheme would give us > > time for > > a quiet think. However we can bring nutrients up to the photic > > layers > > and grow more phytoplankton giving more dimethyl sulphide for > > cloud > > nuclei and converting lots of CO2 to non acidic biomass, some > > of which > > we can eat. > > > > There is a paper called /Hurricanes carbon and fish and a > > picture called > > /MacNeill downtube in the /Hurricanes folder at the site below my > > signature. /Chlorophyll comparison shows how empty most of the > > oceans > > are for most of the time. Click through at about one a second > > for a > > month-by-month animation. We need lots of permanent, private > > la Nina events. > > > > Stephen > > > > > > Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design > > School of Engineering and Electronics > > University of Edinburgh > > Mayfield Road > > Edinburgh EH9 3JL > > Scotland > > tel +44 131 650 5704 > > fax +44 131 650 5702 > > Mobile 07795 203 195 > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs <http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/%7Eshs> < > http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/%7Eshs> > > > > > > > > Mike MacCracken wrote: > > > Just a note that while pumping heat down into the ocean can > > lead to > > > local cooling, storing heat in the ocean is adding and > retaining > > > energy, so will eventually emerge as warming. And, of > > course, it will > > > contribute to sea level rise. Thus, while a local effort of > > this type > > > to help limit hurricane intensification may be a good trade, > > it is not > > > likely to be a global cure for the system (unless one can > > really pull > > > the GHG concentrations down in other ways so heat from the > > ocean would > > > moderate the rate of cooling—as it does now during winter). > > > > > > Mike MacCracken > > > > > > > > > On 12/28/09 1:34 AM, "[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>" <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > > > Hello, I'm new here and I expect to make a few blunders > > until I am > > > better acquainted with previous discussions. I am a retired > > > physicist and have some leadership role in the Sierra Club. > > > > > > The Salter Sink is an excellent concept for raising cold > > water to > > > the surface. the area that needs design attention is the > > injection > > > system at the bottom of the tube. With careful design, > > it will > > > raise probably ten times as much cold water as is pumped > > down. > > > This design work is quite easy. > > > > > > Next, I had never considered the advantage of the > > wave-driven pump > > > as a way to cool the ocean, rather as a way to raise > > nutrients to > > > the surface to increase biological production. Most of > > the ocean > > > surface world-wide is limited in production by > > inadequate nitrate > > > and phosphate rather than iron. Some good places for > > hurricane > > > control are also good for placement of "ocean farms" fed > > by wave > > > pumps. For example, the North Atlantic Gyre region, also > > known as > > > the Sargasso Sea. > > > > > > I believe if somebody will check the economic potential of > > > pump-fed sea farms in some areas such as the horse > > latitudes, it > > > will be found that the Salter pumps will pay for > > themselves and > > > return a handsome profit. > > > > > > My thought-- it isn't necessary to remove the pump > > structures > > > before they encounter storms--if they are lowered below the > > > surface by about 100 meters, then they are completely > > sheltered > > > from the storm above. > > > > > > I can imagine a Salter pump connected to a lattice > > structure that > > > spreads over an area of sea around the pump. Kelp or other > > > suitable plants are anchored to the lattice. The "farm" > > provides a > > > sea pasture in which farm animals are grown and > > harvested for market. > > > > > > Ernie Rogers > > > Pleasant Grove, Utah > > > Phone 801-368-4902 > > > > > > In a message dated 12/27/2009 6:02:04 P.M. Mountain > > Standard Time, > > > [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]> writes: > > > > > > John and list: > > > > > > I agree that this was an important interview for > > advancing > > > geoengineering (Fareed Zakaria is one of my favorite > > > writers/analysts/interviewers). My main objection > > was that > > > Fareed or > > > his show producers seemed to not be aware of the > > limitations > > > of SRM. By > > > this I mean that the fundamental causation agent - > > excess CO2 > > > - was > > > ignored, not mentioned once. Greg Lau's message to > > the list just > > > earlier on the need to protect against ocean > > acidification was > > > never > > > hinted at. (More tomorrow on that.) > > > > > > The end of the twenty minutes was on Myrhvold's > > firms focus on > > > investing in inventions - which he says only his new > > firm is > > > doing > > > (emphasizing this is not the same as venture capital > > - which > > > he also > > > claimed has revolutionized modern American (world?) > > business). > > > > > > I wish I knew whether Myrhvold himself was working > > on CO2 > > > removal as > > > well as his SO2 approach. The site also has quite a > > bit on the > > > Salton > > > Sink concept (see > > > > > > http://www.intvenlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Salter-Sink-white-paper-300dpi1.pdf > ). > > > > > > Also see http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=338 > > for added > > > material on > > > geoengineering. > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > John Nissen wrote: > > > > Hi all > > > > > > > > Have you seen this? Best case for SRM in Arctic > > I've seen! > > > > > > > > Inventor Nathan Myhrvold describes "space hose" > > for getting > > > aerosols > > > > into stratosphere - and he's done the modelling to > > show it > > > could be used > > > > at the Arctic, to cool whole hemisphere, without > > disrupting > > > weather (see > > > > about 9 minutes in). "Cooling the Arctic shuts of > > a whole lot of > > > > tipping points." It shows incredible promise, but > > governments > > > aren't > > > > running to him - so far. > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/podcasts/fareedzakaria/site/2009/12/20/gps.podcast.12.20.cnn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Suppressing the only technology that could get us > > out of this > > > > pickle..." would be plain silly. > > > > > > > > He argues (as nobody I've seen to argue before), > > that even > > > emissions > > > > reduction to zero overnight, would not solve the > > problem of > > > global > > > > warming, because about 20% CO2 stays in atmosphere > for > > > thousands of years. > > > > > > > > "Geoengineering has to be part of the debate". "We > > have to > > > examine the > > > > options". "You can't rule these things out." > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > You received this message because you are > > subscribed to the > > > Google Groups "geoengineering" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > > > > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > >. > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > > > > Version: 9.0.722 / Virus Database: 270.14.121/2589 > > - Release > > > Date: 12/27/09 02:18:00 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed > > to the > > > Google Groups "geoengineering" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > > > > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > >. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to > > the Google > > > Groups "geoengineering" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > > > > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > >. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > Google > > > Groups "geoengineering" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > > > > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > >. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > -- > > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > Google Groups "geoengineering" group. > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > [email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > > > > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > >. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "geoengineering" group. > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > [email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > > > > <mailto:geoengineering%[email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > >. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "geoengineering" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > -- > The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "geoengineering" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<geoengineering%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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