On Wed, Jun 22, 2005 at 10:12:05AM +0200, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> This is not about making you and Marc shut up. This is about designing
> a user interface that works for the majority of users. Whatever we do,
> there will always be someone complaining. I don't really care who that
> is.

That is, I think the fundamental flaw. A user interface that works for the
majority is a pretty idiotic goal. A user interface should work for ALL
users, and likely should have features to support the majority.

The simple goal of "works for the majority" is nothing short of a
dictatorship (while in a democracy the majority rules, the fundamental
point of democracy is minority rights).

If that *were* the goal, why have things like ATK, which are decidedly not
for the majority? And who decides what the majority is? The newbies? I am
not sure newbies are the majority of gimp users (but I am pretty sure at
some point in ther future this will be the case).

So that argument is *completely* and *utterly* bogus, firstly because you
equate majority==newbies, and secondly because it's not a viable goal at

> > And why is it so important that there be a concept for the entire
> > dialog beyond "what works best for people"?  The problem (to me, and
> > I daresay to Marc) is very simple -- there's no obvious way to
> > simply enter a pathname with a simple form of completion that's only
> > activated on demand.  A file dialog without this is just plain
> > fatally flawed.
> The problem is to find out what works best for people. Trying to
> decide this in an argument among developers is very certainly going to
> fail.

I disagree, and I haven't actually seen evidence of that, despite hearing
that a lot, I don't think developers are somehow worse off then users.
Despite, I am unfortunately a mere gimp _user_ right now.

This is basically the same argument, where you exchanged "the majority" by
"people", and it has the same flaws. I _am_ part of that "people", as are
you and other developers.

The easiest way to find out is to try it, and see how it works. This is
currently what's being done, and you can't complain about the negative
(and also positive) feedback, so it seems to be the correct approach.

> > Make it a configuration option, if you like.
> No, I don't like configuration options, I hate them.

Others would love them!

(In most cases there are unavoidable, wether it's themes or keyboard
layout.  Some people simply have different preferences. And while you hate
preferences some people would be rather better of with them).

> And it would also not have to be me who adds it but the GTK+
> developers. We are certainly not going to fiddle with the internals of
> the GtkFileChooser widget.

Yes, the discussion has become a little bit out of bounds for
gimp-developer again. Just remember that the original problem was the
attitude of yours with regards to user complaints (or suggestions).

> > despite it being obsolete in many ways where I could, and otherwise
> > started a new instance of the GIMP each time I had to use it, because
> > dealing with the file dialog was so hopeless.  Eventually after poking
> > around Google I found the ctrl-L hack, but it's still very clumsy
> > compared to the simplicity of a text entry box.
> I agree that the Ctrl-L is clumsy and I would like it to be removed
> (of course after it has been completely obsoleted). But you don't
> really need Ctrl-L to use the dialog. I am sorry that you made your
> first experiences with the new dialog with the early versions that
> were indeed rather akward to use.

Well, it's not as if this has fundamentally changed till the current
version.  You seem to relate all the bad user experiences to old versions,
but that is not true. I based my initial response on gtk+-2.6.7, and now
used gtk+-2.6.8, which is exactly the version you asked people to try.

                The choice of a
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