On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 12:52:44PM -0400, Miguel de Icaza wrote:
> Carol,
>    My guess is that Luis was trying to be polite to you, but I already
> explained to you on the previous mail who was responsible for the
> changes to the selector, and where ultimately does the responsibility
> lie.  
it was a meeting of developers.  i can only assume that this was an
answer tailored for a developer situation.

>    In this new e-mail of yours, you ignore the explanation, and instead
> decide to take up your issues again Luis (again). 
i went through those channels already.

>    It is pointless to keep hammering on Luis, you have to take that
> problem to the Gimp maintainers.
there is the issue of the cost of the flight to get me to luis to
receive this answer.  there is the point that i am a volunteer who has
been being given a run around with some really terrible answers by a
group of people called Ximian.

>    I do not like you, because you are rude (see the archived mail) and
> you are paranoid (see the archived mail).
if i were paranoid, i would not have helped you with the emails.  i am
not paranoid, i think i know completely what is going on here.  there is
an Ximian footprint on some questionable changes on software being
developed for a free software community and a certain amount of respect
should be shown to the volunteers.  i am not paranoid.  i know what i
have done and why i did it and who i represent.

>    Like I said before, if you dislike all contributions from
> Ximian/Novell, then fork the toolkit.  The maintainers to Gtk+ do not
> seem to mind (or they would have rejected our contributions). 
okay, back to this.  should i name my fork the ximian tool kit?  i have
been maintaining a gimp.org website.  i traveled to a developers meeting
to represent gimp.  i have a gimp.org mail address.  can you help me
with what i should name my fork of the "gimp tool kit"?  i asked nicely
before for help with this.  i ask nicely again.

(btw, i am not in this to make friends with you.  please avoid personal
attacks when dealing with volunteers)

> > 6) when you ask someone who they are and they politely answer back, it
> >    is just plain good manners to respectfully do the same and politely
> >    explain who you are back.  you had your chance, you decided not to.
>    You are the first person in years that asks for introductions to have
> a debate, I am not interested in Internet dating with you.
you asked me who i was.  i respectfully answered.  i have been involved
with gimp since 1998 yet still i found your question "who are you" to be
fair and answered it.  this politeness has been answered back with you
accusing me of wanting dates?  i am going to be 42 years old this year
and i would be embarrassed to date you for ohsomany reasons. thanks
anyway.  do you think that all female volunteers just are there because
they want to date you?  besides, since i had to learn about you myself,
i guess i see that probably you already date nat.

> > either Ximian has a bad way with volunteers or with female volunteers in
> > particular.  no matter what, as far as i know from the what those people
> > on this list told me -- stupid changes has been made to the gimp toolkit
> > because luis mom is too stupid to use her computer.
> You are obnoxious, I have no problems with normal people.
this is the reason that an ximian employee gave to me at a developers
conference.  no, i was not "hitting on him".  i was asking questions
about developer decisions.  so far, luis mom is the only solid reason i
get for the changes and this bad reasoning still has yet to be

> > after that, explain the reason Ximian is unwilling to put their own name
> > on this software they "help" so much.
> We do not do that, because we consume the upstream version of Gtk+.  If
> you have a problem with the way Gtk+ is maintained, take your problem to
> the Gtk+ maintainers.  
i did.  i was sent to luis. luis told me it was all about his mom.  now
i talk to you.  you accuse me of wanting to date you.

> > miguel, question.  do all the Ximian employees treat volunteers and
> > volunteer funding the way i was treated?  you are in charge of them?  if
> > not, who is?
> Only rude and obnoxious ones like you.
frustrated volunteer.  being frustrated by an answer like "so the
computer is simple for my mom" leads to me being obnoxious.  i really
have the interests of the people who contributed to my flight and such
to get me to the developer meeting in mind.  forgive me, it is a big job
-- representing volunteers and trying to keep a handle on what is being
developed and the reasons for it.

we still have only luis mom to blame for this new file selector and a
list of people you provided that i already have tried to deal with.  and
now you.  what about you do you think i want to be an internet date
with, btw?

> > what you will find there is a person wondering why this company changes
> > free software to suit a mother and not the needs of the community.  
> I already explained to you the genesis of the file selector (even if it
> was not any of my doing, nor was I involved in it, but I managed to use
> google, oh, surprise!  the information is public!  Oh my god!)
i did not read this reason.  can you send one simple mail with the
reasoning behind it and explain to me why luis told me the changes were
made for his mom at the developer conference?

i really have many volunteers and donators to answer to.  really and
truly.  you are not helping me explain to them why such an answer would
be given at a developers meeting by your employee if it was not the
total truth.  and some amends need to be made to the people who sent me
to this "developer meeting" if what luis told me was not the truth.

> > a lot of people contributed to get me there.  Ximian has been fairly
> > disrespectful about this.  perhaps you can address that.
> Yes, I can address that, you are rude and obnoxious and to make things
> worse, instead of using the data I have provided you in the previous
> email, you have chosen to hammer again on Luis (who had nothing to do,
> and was probably just giving a polite explanation to someone who is
> clearly rude and obnoxious). 
while i was there and speaking to people in person at the expense of the
people who made donations to gimp things, luis TOLD me it was made for
his mom.  if this is not the case, someone needs to apologize to the
people who sent me there and make up for it.

i did not go to that conference looking for romance or parties.  i went
there because volunteer and donations made it possible.  luis said it
was done for his mom.  fix it and fix it.  fix the misinformation,
please.  and then fix the fact that your employee did not have a
developer worthy answer for the volunteers.  please.  all the rest is
just spam.

> > have you sent an apology to tim ney yet?  or is your whole group still
> > standing behind luis reason for the changes?
> There is nothing to apology for.
so, you stick with luis answer then ....

> There are no "changes" to the file selector, there is a *new* file
> selector that developers can choose to use over the old one.
well, what i read about this on the developer list is that perhaps
people developing for gnome need to work more closely with gimp.  gimp
tool kit and all.  also, the fact that gimp has a much greater userbase
than gnome and kde combined and that it has been developed, advocated,
marketed and *handled* by volunteers -- this needs to be considered.

> A conscious decision was made by someone in the Gimp team to use the new
> file selector as opposed to the old one. 
> If you have a problem with that, talk to the Gimp maintainers.
> Keep me out of this, ok?
get your ximian people out of gtk or have them give better answers when
in a developer conference.  

i agree, things need to be tidied up some.  i really am responsible to a
whole bunch of people who contributed time and money to send me to a
developer meeting in which i was told by luis, representing ximian, that
the changes were made for his mom.  for shame.

now no one wants to deal with that fact.

miguel, are you in charge at ximian?  maybe i got that wrong.


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