Hi Ryan, (and also Tim) > Also, does Apple still support the OS9 interface? If a lot of users of Apple > software, when switching from OS9 to OSX, asked over and over for the > desktop to behave the old way, should Apple have to listen to them? Of > course not. For there to be innovation, stability and consistency in GNOME, > we have to make decisions like, "is this really necessary?", or "is there a > better way we can do this?". What you're describing leads to preference > overload: including many useless and inefficient options and increasing the > probability of bugs. For GNOME to move forward, we have to ditch the old way > of using the desktop (though it, as of now, is not completely ditched). You > can't run forward while staying in the same place.
You are completely incorrect here. Apple supported legacy applications for a really long time in OSX. I should know being as i upgraded from 0S9 to OSX. Sure, they ditched the stupid pullout menu and integrated multiple desktops and compositing, but trying to compare the dissatisfaction of some current gnome-users, to that of apple users - isn't even comparable, at all. Almost every single apple-user i knew at the time of the switch - was very happy with OSX and the re-adjusting to the new interface was not a big deal (or even drastic), nor did it take any significant effort to adjust. not only that, but the switch from OS9 to OSX was not nearly the overhaul (for the end-user) to that of migrating from gnome2 to gnome3. Furthermore Gnome-Shell is not OSX, and Gnome is not Apple... GS isn't nearly as efficient, easy to use, reliable or even as advanced....the switch is a much bigger deal. your Apple analogy is terrible, and totally not applicable. > Will you please stop this? I'm sorry, but you are refusing to give any good > examples whatsoever of how it's harder to use the interface and this thread > is going in circles because of it (which you blame on me, which isn't the > case at all). You are just assuming that, because some people don't like it, > that it *has* to be bad, when there are many, many happy GNOME 3 users that > don't resort to fallback mode. Please do not respond to this until you stop > repeating the same message over and over without examples. GNOME cannot move > forward (for your definition of "forward") without solid evidence that it > would be better to do so; seriously, how can anybody expect GNOME to change > without proper reasoning behind it? It would be illogical to do otherwise. I think it is important to point out that there have been just as many unhappy gnome-users as there are happy ones. Gnome has been completely dropped from UbuntuStudio (they don't like Unity or Gnome-Shell), because the gnome-shell workflow is incompatible with what most multimedia-desktop users require, as far as usability is concerned... Mint isn't using gnome-shell and many many many people have switched to Xfce or KDE. I don't plan on using gnome-shell anytime soon, and i know a ton of people who feel the exact same way. No one i work with likes it. My dad had me come over to his place this weekend to replace Gnome-Shell with a Gnome 3 compiz desktop - neither him or my step-mom liked using the shell - AT ALL! ~ they used it for a month - which was plenty of time to adjust - frankly if a DE takes any longer to adjust to - then there is a serious design problem - and cannot be passed of as being the user's own fault/problem.... My step-mom is your semi-average PC user, she obviously knows her way around windows - she knows her way around OSX, and has been using Linux for alomst a year, now.... My dad, like myself - works as a sys-admin, and has used most OSes, dating back to CPM. we've had to adjust to many interfaces over the years, and gnome-shell for us has been - by far, the worst DE to have to get used to (and in my case - it isn't even a viable option, currently). I still check in on gnome-shell's progress - ie: i have gnome-shell fully customized, some extensions, themes, etc. I use it every day or so, and also whenever an update comes through. I read blogs and find out about the latest stuff.... But or me, GS isn't good enough yet, not even close. Tablet/stylus support is terrible and the interraction with the interface can be quite limited, slow and that isn't including other problems (yes, nvidia still sucks in GS compared to compiz - and i am running the latest beta, and also had tried the latest release before moving to nvidia 275.xx) basically we are told that mice/pointing devices are a waste of time, and that we should be using the keyboard (how 1983ish). Then when the person gives an example of the types of applications, they actually are using for their argument/reasoning - it quickly becomes apparent as to why they think the keyboard is the only way to go...ie: they mainly use IDE's, Libre Office, etc. For that type of usage - i would agree the keyboard is probably the best way to go, but what about users who are not using these types of applications, nearly as much??? what about people who use applications like Ardour, Gimp, MyPaint, Firefox, rawstudio, cinepaint, blender, etc...and other types of applications that are actually EASIER and BETTER to use with a pointing device???(any device that isn't a keyboard, essentially) What about the majority of desktop users who aren''t all that interested in relying on a keyboard for every task??? (which happens to be the vast majority fo users)... the truth of the matter is that the best kinds of UI/GUIs are ones that integrate multiple ways of getting any single given task done - not only with a keyboard, but potentially mice, tablets, stylus, multitouch, voice, and hopefully camera's as well, sometime in the future... hopefully, GTK will eventually provide better integration for other types of interfaces, which could solve my issues anyway. In particular i would love to see proper stylus/tablet support... but currently Gnome doesn't provide such facility - and whenever i have seen someone bring up pointing devices - they are told they are wrong to be using their PC in this way - so i would argue some valid points definitely are ignored - and like Tim pointed out, many people of this list just repeat the same old crap - you haven't given gnome-shell a chance, or use your keyboard instead.... So i do really think, although Tim's approach may not be the best way to go (neither was mine when i was peeved about some design decisions), there is some validity to what disgruntled users like himself are saying, though. Gnome-Shell hasn't proven itself over Gnome2 (to me gnome 3 has, just not the shell) - if it had, you wouldn't see it being dropped from distributions and you wouldn't see so many users switching, or complaining nearly as much... > The *only* potentially good reason I've heard for, say, wanting a window > list, is that some users like using the mouse and don't want to have to use > the keyboard. In some (not all) cases this is the fault of the user for not > trying to use both of their hands, but in other cases, such as if the user > has only one hand or rarely has two hands available, it can be worked around > with an extension. There are many, many extensions that enable a GNOME > 2-like experience (application menu, icons on the top panel, moving the > clock, etc.) and if GNOME 3 *cannot possibly fit into a user's workflow*, > some extensions can help remedy that. I'm glad you've said "in some (not all) cases".... I have zero interest in using a keyboard to navigate, open apps, managing desktops, switching applications, administration of my system - such as updating the system, installing applications (from the command line, using all gestures), etc. I can do ALL of these tasks faster with my Stylus, than even possible with a keyboard. navigating doesn't even require clicking (in the case of viewing all desktops, scale plugin, etc... For example; 1.switching desktops can be done by a "pen-stroke" or gesture. to reveal all desktops i do not even require a "click". 2.to use scale (all applications, from all desktop, in a "natural-view", same thing - i can just move my stylus (no clicking, or having to enter "activities"). 3. entering large commands and passwords.... i would love to see anyone using a keyboard try to type a password like this; "1234h13k5243k767gkj6748kk567hj2452kjngfsbfgbnsktrkvqk4jn562jn7jnkk3k45jn6ysfgwstyhjUYETYBWTRHWtyh45146" ...in a shorter time, than i can execute this with my stylus/tablet - it would be straight up impossible to execute this faster with a keyboard.... and while using easystroke with Gnome-Shell i can do some stuff, using GS actually breaks so many other friendly and handy features i have been using for years, that GS actually limits my productivity - because the shell doesn't have facility for users like myself. (hell, im still waiting for GTK to provide proper tablet/stylus support) 4.i would love to see someone, open a terminal, install/upgrade software, enter their password faster than i can with a tablet - it's not even possible. by the time they finished opening a terminal and typing, i would already be downloading and upgrading the system...and yet i have seen several people on this list try to convince people there is no faster way than a keyboard. I think it turns out that these people do not own modern interfaces, or atleast do not make good use of them. anyway, my point is there have been lots of requests ignored that may actually be valid, by people on this list. As a gentleman pointed out to me, when i went on a big-ugly rant (which i apologized for) - most people developing gnome, are programmers, not people focused on using multimedia, gaming, etc - which are all general desktop applications, in any popular OS. there has been much more focus on what programmers want, and office type usages - but other desktop usage out of that scope - has been put on the shelf.... I wonder how many gnome-shell developers actually own a tablet (adding padding to widgets and claiming gnome-shell is tablet friendly is a far cry from REAL tablet support!) ....or how many are using their desktop beyond IDE's, libre office, and the commandline???? (and of course obvious things like web-browsing). How many are gamers? how many are graphic artists? how many are proaudio-users? So really, it's easy to brush off how disgruntled gnome-users may use their desktop, and instead tell them they should be doing things another way, which might be the proper way for that particular user, using certain types of applications..... while for these other gnome-users who have different requirements - it doesn't even make sense to do things that way. I would never use a keyboard for half of the things that have been recommended to people on this list.... *** Tim - i would say your approach here on the list, will get you nowhere. You either need to invest some time in learning/tweaking gnome-shell, or wait until Gnome-Shell becomes more usable (as in a ton of 3rd-party extensions), or do as i have done, which is build your desktop around Gnome 3 without gnome-shell (i don't use gnome-panel or GDM, i use compiz, kupfer, etc) - it isn't that hard to do, and for me anyway, i actually prefer gnome 3 to gnome 2 - "under the hood" - G3 is much nicer, cleaner, less buggy and more reliable than Gnome2....it isn't the big inconvenience you think. As a fedora user i would assume you are comfortable with linux, right? if so, you should be able to easily switch things around however you like.... ...or you can just ditch Gnome all together, as it seems you have already done - and many other people have done. I for one, will stick with Gnome3, and watch progress of gnome-shell (as i can run my desktop the way I want, while also being able to use GNome-Shell if i choose to) - but if it never works well for my particular workflow, than i will continue to use "fallback", and if Gnome-developers break support for fallback, then they just lost another user... Hopefully, this doesn't happen. I do really like the Gnome 3 stack, and it is an improvement over gnome 2 in many many ways,....and i should be allowed to run my gnome desktop how i like - not be told by people whom don't even use a computer the way that i do, like they know better ~ because they don't! (contrary to what their own arrogance may tell them). it's my desktop, and i have been using Linux for years and years - i know what is best for my workflow/desktop, and what the best options are for me. Developers may define certain standards ~ but it is users who determine their fate. the extra 30min/1hr that it takes to customize my gnome desktop, after a fresh install (that gnome-shell is trying really hard to "do away with"), leaves me with a much more usable, optimal desktop, with higher functionality than Gnome-Shell currently can provide - it's faster, more efficient and easier to use.... and is worth the extra effort! i don't believe GS will catch up for at least a year or two. we will see what happens. So again Tim, i would just do what works for you - don't bother fighting with people on this list. They know how they want gnome to be, and like Ryan has pointed out - many of these topics have been discussed over and over again... Gnome-Shell's design isn't going to change..... if gnome-shell is going to be successful ~ as i said, at the end of the day it will be it's users who determine that. Not the developers and that is the reality. So far, it's a pretty mixed bag - hopefully gnome 3.2 will be a better release. jordan _______________________________________________ gnome-shell-list mailing list [email protected] http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
