Nandakumar Kamat from GU has done considerable work on communidade and published his work. I think it could be a main or lateral information piece for this discussion. The category 'clan' does not explain anything in Goa in Konkani. If the original Konkani words are made into categories of analysis and explanation, it could explain the past relations in a better light. William Robert Da Silva
On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 1:13 PM Frederick Noronha <[email protected]> wrote: > > That (land) is a capital asset, and irreplaceable once lost. Much of which > has been (till the very recent past) acquired compulsorily by governments for > a pittance. While the comunidade/gaunkari system has its flaws and > limitations (a millenia-old institution, obviously without today's > perspectives of equality and fairness), to my mind it is anyday preferable to > the land loot which has ascended a land where every other politician is also > a realtor in one way or another. > > This is what Madhav Gadgil -- described as a "researcher, teacher, > institution-builder, policy influencer, activist, author" -- wrote (A Walk up > the Hill: Living with People and Nature, Penguin Random House 2023, p.18-19) > >> Pune has always been a socially vibrant city and the following month of >> August 1961 witnessed the excitement of many public figures from Pune >> preparing to march to Goa, possibly to face gunfire as they prepared to >> cross the Goaborder to demand that the Portuguese quit India. The team was >> being led by Senapati bapat who had been conferred that title by the >> citizens of Maharashtra to his leadership of the satyagraha of farmers whose >> lands were being submerged under the Mulshi dam. His second in command was >> Mahadev Shastri Joshi. I had read with must interest Mahadev Shastri's books >> on places in Maharashtra well known for battles and for temples. More >> importantly, he had edited the ten-volume Bharatiya Sanskriti Kosh, the >> Encyclopaedia of Indian Culture, which I had referred quite frequently. He >> was born and brought up in Goa, although now settled on a farm in the >> outskirts of Pune city. His daughter Krishna was a classmate and close >> friend of my sister Sulabha, and we had visited his farm on many occasions. >> I therefore asked him about my guess that Goa owed its verdure and natural >> beauty to its village community-based management system, gaonkari, about >> which I had read in Dharmanand Kosambi's Writings. He confirmed that this >> was so and that these community management systems were characterized by >> practices of prudence and conservation. > > >> >> Goa's village communities also suffered from the evils of the caste system >> as in other parts of India. The gaonkari was governed by settled >> agriculturists. Before they established themselves, the terrain would have >> been occupied by hunter-gatherer, shifting cultivator and fishing >> communities that were pushed off the land and were assigned a lower status >> in the caste hierarchy with rigidly fixed hereditary occupations. These >> castes then came to serve as landless labourers, as artisans like carpenters >> and potters and, even lower in status, as village guards or leather workers. >> Goa's society also came to be constituted of endogamous caste groups, with >> intermarriage being prohibited. The lower castes had little chance of rising >> in the social hierarchy and the dominant landowning community had scant >> concern for them. Nevertheless, they very effectively conserved and >> sustainably used their own natural resources. Such village community-based >> institutions prevailing all over India were destroyed in British India to >> facilitate the colonizers' drain of India's resources, including those inthe >> community-managed forests that were brought under the control of the state >> forest departments. The Portuguese also attempted to dissolve village >> community governance but gave up the attempt because it led to substantial >> losses in agricultural production and consequently in agricultural tax >> revenue. So, Goa had retained village community-level governance, or >> gaonkari, termed the comunidade system by the Portuguese. This was the >> secret of Goa's retention of its verdure, despite the inequities of the >> caste system, till its liberation in 1961. > > : > FN > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 at 11:59, John Nazareth <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Nevertheless, it is encouraging that the sale of land proceeds are being >> passed to the gaunkars. >> >> But Marianne has a point that women are being left out. >> >> John >> >> >> >> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> On Behalf Of Marianne de Nazareth >> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2024 2:07 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) >> >> >> >> Ok! Thats good to know as I heard in Pilerne, its in the region of 14- 17 k >> per person. >> >> Our tenants are holding the panchayat posts now! >> >> >> >> Marianne >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 10:08 PM Frederick Noronha >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Pilerne is an exception. The zonn is coming from the sale of their permanent >> land assets to the industrial estate atop the village hillock. In >> comunidades I know of, the zonn is about Rs 100 per year, and that too, only >> if you register a year in advance. Not worth the time and trouble. What is >> the zonn in the other areas? >> >> An interesting study would be to see how comunidades got treated since the >> 1960s, when they were stripped of their powers and income, especially during >> the era of land reforms across India... That was also incidentally when >> large landholders in parts of Goa joined politics and didn't lose most of >> their assets. FN >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 at 21:45, Marianne de Nazareth <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> The system is alive and well in my village in Goa for decades. Infact the >> males who register get a very handsome zonn. >> >> To clarify ---this is in MY family property and NOT my husbands. By >> Portuguese law everyone gets a share including the spouses. >> >> I am happy to look after the family homestead, as my connections to it are >> strong. >> >> I just felt the zonn was meant to help maintain the property which due to my >> gender I am not eligible. >> >> >> >> Marianne >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 6:55 PM John Nazareth <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Well, first of all, the system is now practically defunct so there would be >> nothing left to reform. >> >> I guess at the time it was formulate the intention was that the woman would >> join the communidade of her husband and as such she had access to her >> husband’s zonn. >> >> Frankly, I have found that Goan women were/are very strong and often save >> their men from themselves. >> >> (For a personal example, when Uganda exploded in 1972 I was thinking of >> joining the guerrillas in neighbouring Tanzania to fight Amin. I got married >> to girlfriend Cynthia Fernandes who was outside the country at the time. >> That was the end of my guerrilla thoughts.) >> >> I have always joked with my friends that Goan society was the only >> “patriarchal” society run by the women. >> >> This is only half a joke; it is a reality. Goan women have run their homes. >> >> The only thing is that they would do in their husband’s village. >> >> >> >> But further to that – I have noticed in my research on clans that a >> significant percentage of cases the family unit has moved to live in the >> village of the mother (while getting the zonn from the husband’s village. >> >> >> >> This too confirms my belief that God is a great joker, but the whole world >> is afraid to laugh. >> >> >> >> John >> >> P.S. In the old days the Goan inheritance rules were that the villager’s >> family property was shared between the male children. I believe that it >> changed so that women also had inheritance rights. I am not sure when it >> changed – someone else would be better positioned to say more. >> >> >> >> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> On Behalf Of Marianne de Nazareth >> Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2024 2:29 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) >> >> >> >> What I feel sad about is that we daughters of the family -- who are the ONLY >> ones looking after the family homes -- are not part of the Zonn. >> >> >> >> Isnt it time such patriarchy was changed to include us women inheritors? >> >> >> >> Dr Marianne Furtado de Nazareth >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 9:41 AM John Nazareth <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> The relationship between the gavnkars, zonnkars, munddkars, and other >> players in the gavnkari have been written about for many years and I was >> used to reading about them. >> >> But when Leroy Veloso first showed me his work in 2007 about using the >> Matricula – which was primarily for registering people who were to receive >> some fraction of the zonn – to identify clans I immediately recognized it as >> a valuable bi-product. I don’t think that was its intention but it is >> important. >> >> And its simplicity is elegant. I was surprised that more historians were not >> doing it. >> >> >> >> Of course, there is deeper work that can proceed from it and the master of >> such work is Bernardo De Sousa in his book “The Last Prabhu”. >> >> Someone needs to create a how-to paper to work with the mahajans to identify >> the root surnames the way Bernardo has done. That is not simple. >> >> But I wanted to point out how simple it is to work with the matricula, say >> from 1940, to unearth the clans of a village. >> >> That is important because now that the Gavnkari has been treated so >> callously by the new institutions of governance those documents are in >> danger. >> >> Everyone needs to work quickly to work with their communidade to create a >> clan list. >> >> >> >> Once the matricula ledgers go to the Panjim Archives it is all over. >> >> I couldn’t find anyone there who knew what they were and how to get access >> to them. They are lost in the ether. >> >> Finding books of baptisms, marriages and deaths are easy, but you can forget >> about the matriculas. >> >> So work with what you can find in the village communidades today. >> >> I sat in the Nachinola communidade for just 2 hours and was able to create a >> table. Nachinola was my late wife’s village. >> >> I couldn’t thank them enough for their kindness. They wouldn’t even accept a >> donation for their institution. >> >> But what I have created has been highly prized by my Nachinola friends. >> >> >> >> I stand in awe of the traditional system of village governance that stood >> for over 1000 years and that is now in its twilight years. >> >> >> >> John Nazareth >> >> >> >> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> On Behalf Of wrdsilva >> Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2024 12:15 AM >> To: Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) >> >> >> >> My fieldwork in Goa shows the Matricula etc. have merit, but the 'clan' >> system is difficult to describe the way it is often done. Ganvponn, >> Ganvkari, Zonn, Zonnkar, Munddkar, Mittgaudde etc.etc. makes the rural >> system a little more complicated than it is recovered from 'communidades' >> accounts, or vangodd systems. We need good fieldwork complimented by >> documents, Portuguese and local (Konkani, Marathi) in order to get a better >> grasp of the system operating and changing over external interventions in >> Goa. >> >> William Robert Da Silva >> >> On Thursday, April 4, 2024 at 1:34:30 PM UTC+5:30 Rowena wrote: >> >> Very exciting. I remember wanting to work on this decades ago. Glad someone >> is 👍🏼 Regards, rowena >> >> On Thu, 4 Apr, 2024, 13:25 Frederick Noronha, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> A paper by John Nazareth <[email protected]>, Canada-based statistician >> and history enthusiast. Check it out below. He writes: >> "These tables can be gleaned from the Matricula, while is the ledger within >> the Communidade office on which they log the gaunkars who are registering >> for their zonn." He says while his work covers only a few villages, others >> could do so for more. "I got one of my friends to do the necessary in Anjuna >> in just two days." >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53J0ZVMvJshaYnnvNNeceRcNt55AKEG%2B%3D9CyUo0m2cVBxQ%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/19cf537c-3cb9-4170-b53a-67501262ed34n%40googlegroups.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB61470DDD7B560D4074E0729EFF002%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Dr Marianne de Nazareth >> >> Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, >> >> Freelance Environmental Journalist >> >> Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater >> >> Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ >> >> http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeK0AkswyPG0F3T5P1yFvuUJg0KOAMyWcOfFTv-uMQ-rKg%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB61470436A8A4DC24F64FBDF6FF072%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Dr Marianne de Nazareth >> >> Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, >> >> Freelance Environmental Journalist >> >> Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater >> >> Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ >> >> http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeKAMuuo9cAih9_5FOjVxxxom3MtgEgchd%3D_YmA1hksUfg%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53KnAPrPCSB20odRKfhKz4yrWbq0zNfQURjTAxMZeOOAyg%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Dr Marianne de Nazareth >> >> Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, >> >> Freelance Environmental Journalist >> >> Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater >> >> Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ >> >> http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeKMmeBTjWw-V38aW5v_n_dGz6by_CCG8HGPAEyVmj4fDg%40mail.gmail.com. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147309A4B78411ECF031BBFFF052%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53JVc%3DVtbH%2BOLSp0vtmoPmdEgV1i9GFXgNdGnYPSXSCbaQ%40mail.gmail.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. 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