Thank you for the correction. It was a horrible and shameful tradition made by man.....I wonder what was the reaction of sons to see their own mother burnt in boiling oil I suppose they even cheered at the heroism of their Mothers. Clearly their conscience and brain was numbed. So if Albuquerque intervened I pray that the Almighty pardoned him.
On Sun, 14 Apr 2024, 02:46 John de Figueiredo, <[email protected]> wrote: > The sati tradition was not abolished by the Jesuits. It was abolished by > Afonso de Albuquerque, the Portuguese Governor of Goa, after the Portuguese > liberated Goa from the Muslim rule of Bijapur at the request of Goan > Hindus. Faced with this decision, the Goan Hindus confined the widows to > the temple of Mhalsadevi in Verna. The widows were viewed as having lost > their caste and were placed together with the “bailadeiras” (temple dancing > women) to live there for the rest of their lives. > John M. de Figueiredo > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 13, 2024, at 3:46 PM, Adolfo Mascarenhas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I was impressed with the exposure and evolution of the rights of Women. As > has been pointed out excluding women is not only in Third World Countries > but existed even in the US until the 1920s and in Portugal until the 1930s > under Salazar's rule > The SATI tradition of burning the window when the husband died was > mercifully abolished by the Jesuits early during the Portuguese rule of Goa > I am particularly interested in this topic because my late wife Prof > Ophelia Mascarenhas and later joined by Prof Marjorie Mbilinyi & Pat > Mbuguni pioneered work in Tanzania > By coincidence The Institute Resource Assessment had more women > researchers than men etc > > > M > > > > > > > R > > > > > > On Sat, 13 Apr 2024, 18:30 John de Figueiredo, <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> The village communities existed in Goa and the Konkan centuries before >> the arrival of the Portuguese. The Portuguese initially called them >> “municipios” thinking that they were like the Portuguese “municipios” >> (municipalities). Later the Jesuits in Goa invented the word “comunidades” >> which was far more appropriate. The exclusion of women pre-dated the >> Portuguese. But let us not forget that in the USA women could not vote >> until 1919-1920 (19th Amendment to the US Constitution). In Portugal, women >> were granted the right to vote for the first time in 1931 under Salazar’s >> Estado Novo. The Portuguese respected the local traditions and >> institutions in Goa during the first 30 years (with rare exceptions such as >> the abolition of the “suttee/sati”, a practice they considered inhumane) >> and made minimal changes to the village community system during their 451 >> year rule. They also implemented laws favoring women following the >> Portuguese civil code. >> John M de Figueiredo >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 13, 2024, at 6:21 AM, Marianne de Nazareth <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> Thank you for that education -- I just surmised that since it was called >> the Communidade it was set up by them. >> Wonder if one of the 'tweaks' was to leave us women out! >> >> Marianne >> >> On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 11:32 PM John Nazareth <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> The Communidades were not set up by the Portuguese. >>> >>> These village communities were originally call the Gaunkari – they were >>> set up perhaps 1500 years ago. The are an indigenous society. >>> >>> The Portuguese made some minor changes and renamed them to Communidades. >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* [email protected] < >>> [email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Marianne de Nazareth >>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2024 8:55 AM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) >>> >>> >>> >>> I find it extremely paradoxical that women were included in the >>> inheritance of property by the Portuguese BUT the zonn issued by >>> Communidade ( also set up by the Portuguese) leaves women completely out! >>> >>> >>> >>> I guess something is better than nothing is what I tell myself, when >>> looking after the old homestead, for the family! >>> >>> >>> >>> Marianne >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 11:59 AM John Nazareth <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Nevertheless, it is encouraging that the sale of land proceeds are being >>> passed to the gaunkars. >>> >>> But Marianne has a point that women are being left out. >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* [email protected] < >>> [email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Marianne de Nazareth >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 10, 2024 2:07 AM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) >>> >>> >>> >>> Ok! Thats good to know as I heard in Pilerne, its in the region of 14- >>> 17 k per person. >>> >>> Our tenants are holding the panchayat posts now! >>> >>> >>> >>> Marianne >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 10:08 PM Frederick Noronha < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Pilerne is an exception. The *zonn *is coming from the sale of their >>> permanent land assets to the industrial estate atop the village hillock. In >>> comunidades I know of, the zonn is about Rs 100 per year, and that too, >>> only if you register a year in advance. Not worth the time and trouble. >>> What is the *zonn* in the other areas? >>> >>> An interesting study would be to see how comunidades got treated since >>> the 1960s, when they were stripped of their powers and income, especially >>> during the era of land reforms across India... That was also incidentally >>> when large landholders in parts of Goa joined politics and didn't lose most >>> of their assets. FN >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 at 21:45, Marianne de Nazareth < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> The system is alive and well in my village in Goa for decades. Infact >>> the males who register get a very handsome zonn. >>> >>> To clarify ---this is in MY family property and NOT my husbands. By >>> Portuguese law everyone gets a share including the spouses. >>> >>> I am happy to look after the family homestead, as my connections to it >>> are strong. >>> >>> I just felt the zonn was meant to help maintain the property which due >>> to my gender I am not eligible. >>> >>> >>> >>> Marianne >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 6:55 PM John Nazareth <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Well, first of all, the system is now practically defunct so there would >>> be nothing left to reform. >>> >>> I guess at the time it was formulate the intention was that the woman >>> would join the communidade of her husband and as such she had access to her >>> husband’s zonn. >>> >>> Frankly, I have found that Goan women were/are very strong and often >>> save their men from themselves. >>> >>> (For a personal example, when Uganda exploded in 1972 I was thinking of >>> joining the guerrillas in neighbouring Tanzania to fight Amin. I got >>> married to girlfriend Cynthia Fernandes who was outside the country at the >>> time. That was the end of my guerrilla thoughts.) >>> >>> I have always joked with my friends that Goan society was the only >>> “patriarchal” society run by the women. >>> >>> This is only half a joke; it is a reality. Goan women have run their >>> homes. >>> >>> The only thing is that they would do in their husband’s village. >>> >>> >>> >>> But further to that – I have noticed in my research on clans that a >>> significant percentage of cases the family unit has moved to live in the >>> village of the mother (while getting the zonn from the husband’s village. >>> >>> >>> >>> This too confirms my belief that God is a great joker, but the whole >>> world is afraid to laugh. >>> >>> >>> >>> John >>> >>> P.S. In the old days the Goan inheritance rules were that the villager’s >>> family property was shared between the male children. I believe that it >>> changed so that women also had inheritance rights. I am not sure when it >>> changed – someone else would be better positioned to say more. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* [email protected] < >>> [email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Marianne de Nazareth >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 9, 2024 2:29 AM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) >>> >>> >>> >>> What I feel sad about is that we daughters of the family -- who are the >>> ONLY ones looking after the family homes -- are not part of the Zonn. >>> >>> >>> >>> Isnt it time such patriarchy was changed to include us women inheritors? >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Marianne Furtado de Nazareth >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 9:41 AM John Nazareth <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> The relationship between the gavnkars, zonnkars, munddkars, and other >>> players in the gavnkari have been written about for many years and I was >>> used to reading about them. >>> >>> But when Leroy Veloso first showed me his work in 2007 about using the >>> Matricula – which was primarily for registering people who were to receive >>> some fraction of the zonn – to identify clans I immediately recognized it >>> as a valuable bi-product. I don’t think that was its intention but it is >>> important. >>> >>> And its simplicity is elegant. I was surprised that more historians were >>> not doing it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Of course, there is deeper work that can proceed from it and the master >>> of such work is Bernardo De Sousa in his book “The Last Prabhu”. >>> >>> Someone needs to create a how-to paper to work with the mahajans to >>> identify the root surnames the way Bernardo has done. That is not simple. >>> >>> But I wanted to point out how simple it is to work with the matricula, >>> say from 1940, to unearth the clans of a village. >>> >>> That is important because now that the Gavnkari has been treated so >>> callously by the new institutions of governance those documents are in >>> danger. >>> >>> Everyone needs to work quickly to work with their communidade to create >>> a clan list. >>> >>> >>> >>> Once the matricula ledgers go to the Panjim Archives it is all over. >>> >>> I couldn’t find anyone there who knew what they were and how to get >>> access to them. They are lost in the ether. >>> >>> Finding books of baptisms, marriages and deaths are easy, but you can >>> forget about the matriculas. >>> >>> So work with what you can find in the village communidades today. >>> >>> I sat in the Nachinola communidade for just 2 hours and was able to >>> create a table. Nachinola was my late wife’s village. >>> >>> I couldn’t thank them enough for their kindness. They wouldn’t even >>> accept a donation for their institution. >>> >>> But what I have created has been highly prized by my Nachinola friends. >>> >>> >>> >>> I stand in awe of the traditional system of village governance that >>> stood for over 1000 years and that is now in its twilight years. >>> >>> >>> >>> John Nazareth >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* [email protected] < >>> [email protected]> *On Behalf Of *wrdsilva >>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 7, 2024 12:15 AM >>> *To:* Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> >>> *Subject:* Re: [GRN] Understanding the clans of Goa... (John Nazareth) >>> >>> >>> >>> My fieldwork in Goa shows the Matricula etc. have merit, but the 'clan' >>> system is difficult to describe the way it is often done. Ganvponn, >>> Ganvkari, Zonn, Zonnkar, Munddkar, Mittgaudde etc.etc. makes the rural >>> system a little more complicated than it is recovered from 'communidades' >>> accounts, or vangodd systems. We need good fieldwork complimented by >>> documents, Portuguese and local (Konkani, Marathi) in order to get a better >>> grasp of the system operating and changing over external interventions in >>> Goa. >>> >>> William Robert Da Silva >>> >>> On Thursday, April 4, 2024 at 1:34:30 PM UTC+5:30 Rowena wrote: >>> >>> Very exciting. I remember wanting to work on this decades ago. Glad >>> someone is 👍🏼 Regards, rowena >>> >>> On Thu, 4 Apr, 2024, 13:25 Frederick Noronha, <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> A paper by *John Nazareth* <[email protected]>, Canada-based >>> statistician and history enthusiast. Check it out below. He writes: >>> "These tables can be gleaned from the Matricula, while is the ledger >>> within the Communidade office on which they log the gaunkars who are >>> registering for their zonn." He says while his work covers only a few >>> villages, others could do so for more. "I got one of my friends to do the >>> necessary in Anjuna in just two days." >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53J0ZVMvJshaYnnvNNeceRcNt55AKEG%2B%3D9CyUo0m2cVBxQ%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53J0ZVMvJshaYnnvNNeceRcNt55AKEG%2B%3D9CyUo0m2cVBxQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/19cf537c-3cb9-4170-b53a-67501262ed34n%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/19cf537c-3cb9-4170-b53a-67501262ed34n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB61470DDD7B560D4074E0729EFF002%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB61470DDD7B560D4074E0729EFF002%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Marianne de Nazareth >>> >>> Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, >>> >>> Freelance Environmental Journalist >>> >>> Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater >>> >>> Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ >>> >>> http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeK0AkswyPG0F3T5P1yFvuUJg0KOAMyWcOfFTv-uMQ-rKg%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeK0AkswyPG0F3T5P1yFvuUJg0KOAMyWcOfFTv-uMQ-rKg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB61470436A8A4DC24F64FBDF6FF072%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB61470436A8A4DC24F64FBDF6FF072%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Marianne de Nazareth >>> >>> Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, >>> >>> Freelance Environmental Journalist >>> >>> Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater >>> >>> Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ >>> >>> http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeKAMuuo9cAih9_5FOjVxxxom3MtgEgchd%3D_YmA1hksUfg%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeKAMuuo9cAih9_5FOjVxxxom3MtgEgchd%3D_YmA1hksUfg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53KnAPrPCSB20odRKfhKz4yrWbq0zNfQURjTAxMZeOOAyg%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAMCR53KnAPrPCSB20odRKfhKz4yrWbq0zNfQURjTAxMZeOOAyg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Marianne de Nazareth >>> >>> Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, >>> >>> Freelance Environmental Journalist >>> >>> Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater >>> >>> Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ >>> >>> http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeKMmeBTjWw-V38aW5v_n_dGz6by_CCG8HGPAEyVmj4fDg%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeKMmeBTjWw-V38aW5v_n_dGz6by_CCG8HGPAEyVmj4fDg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147309A4B78411ECF031BBFFF052%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147309A4B78411ECF031BBFFF052%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Marianne de Nazareth >>> >>> Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, >>> >>> Freelance Environmental Journalist >>> >>> Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater >>> >>> Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ >>> >>> http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeJtmFSEJ9Y%3DDi4UWaEnUszju1q2qhE1uaDHA79XfcqhiQ%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHeJtmFSEJ9Y%3DDi4UWaEnUszju1q2qhE1uaDHA79XfcqhiQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147B00DB3D84256A42C8F04FF052%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147B00DB3D84256A42C8F04FF052%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Dr Marianne de Nazareth >> Former Asst. Editor, The Deccan Herald, >> Freelance Environmental Journalist >> Fellow UNFCCC, UNEP, UNWater >> Editor Romantic Getaways https://www.bellaonline.com/ >> http://mariannedenazareth.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHe%2B6zyCAG-htv1Fe8SZAgjLKni05n%3DiWf-%3DQe0qiWG5XPw%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAOqQHe%2B6zyCAG-htv1Fe8SZAgjLKni05n%3DiWf-%3DQe0qiWG5XPw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/A03F6B20-C62D-423F-B9AE-9D047D4C59EC%40sbcglobal.net >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/A03F6B20-C62D-423F-B9AE-9D047D4C59EC%40sbcglobal.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAAxgBsPTEpmFOt5ARik7asNcrBJQbUXjPuMCPfixc83poaaj_w%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAAxgBsPTEpmFOt5ARik7asNcrBJQbUXjPuMCPfixc83poaaj_w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/99994000-26DE-4A8A-892F-11CD1C3C446F%40sbcglobal.net > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/99994000-26DE-4A8A-892F-11CD1C3C446F%40sbcglobal.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAAxgBsNLxTqn0pEO8SwY4kAr%2BGS2qyybUBNKgcbC3ox-81ytmw%40mail.gmail.com.
