| Dear Selma, I certainly will wait for your book. The document you mention is important. The reason for my questions is because that type of discrimination was prohibited by the Marquis of Pombal but because the Goans continued to discriminate for 11 more years ignoring Pombal’s orders, an order from the Viceroy/Governor sought to end the discrimination once and for all restating Pombal’s order. Therefore both the dates and the people who issued such opinions are relevant: whether they were Goans or Europeans. There is a 19th century document in which the Archbishop of Goa recommended a Parish Priest for promotion to Vicar stating that he deserved the promotion because he was a Brahman. This shows an action/reaction between the Goans and the Portuguese. The Portuguese ordered an end to discrimination, the Goans resisted, and the Portuguese gave up and went along with the local practice. It is my understanding that it was not until the 20th century that Archbishop Dom Jose’ da Costa Nunes prohibited such discriminations in the Seminaries and promotions and threaten those who violated his order with excommunication. John Sent from my iPhone On Jan 31, 2025, at 4:41 PM, 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear John,
You shall have to wait for the book :-)
Take care, Selma
On Friday 31 January 2025 at 20:29:54 GMT, JOHN DE FIGUEIREDO < [email protected]> wrote:
Selma, Can you please share with us who interrogated his family and who signed the statement that he was of "pure blood" etc.? John
On Friday, January 31, 2025 at 02:39:46 PM EST, 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net < [email protected]> wrote:
I don't claim to have done a thesis on Goan priests, but since this is a research forum, I'm sharing what I've come to know to be the case in the particular person I am persuing. In 1853, having studied at the Sao Thome Seminary in Madras, he returned to Goa to answer his Latin exam at Rachol. His family were interrogated to confirm that he was of "clean blood" without any Jewish, Muslim, Mulatto intermingling or any race disapproved of by law. Separately, it was also confined that he was of "pure blood" without a doubt about his caste.
Take care, Selma
On Friday 31 January 2025 at 15:08:17 GMT, Joao Paulo Cota < [email protected]> wrote:
The material I refer to on various topics I deal with, is available both online and in hard copy. A lot of my Portuguese India section library books content are not online, in various languages.
Hence I need to find out where the information is. Will definitely let you know when I get hold of it.
BTW, there is a lot of things that happened in Goa under the PIDE operations that are not and I doubt it will ever be on the public domain. Some of it revolves around the Konkani language usage in Goa.
Having spoken to both PIDE related and living Goan freedom fighters as well, afraid there is a lot of oral accounts that are not recorded into historical records and I doubt it will ever be.
I am not really interested in reviving any of it myself, but if any of the above people do it, it would bring new information to the public domain. So far, it is confidential.
I too agree that it is sad that the information written in Portuguese and Latin at Rachol seminary might just turn to dust someday, unless it is digitised in time. I was supposed to had gone to check some Jesuit records in their underground library records,
but unfortunately ran out of time due to my book publication last December.
But will do so in the future.
Joao Paulo
It would be helpful for me to know if there is any written document indicating that the Portuguese government suppressed Konkani from the year 1750 till 1961. I could not find a single one. There was even a chair of Konkani and
Marathi at the Liceu Nacional Afonso de Albuquerque (funded by the Portuguese government). Professor Martinho Faleiro and Professor Esvonta Sinai Talaulicar (both of whom I knew well) taught those languages at the Liceu. I do not know if that chair survived
because of lack of attendance.
Let us not blame the Portuguese government for what appears to be neglect on the part of many Goans. Cunha Rivara’s appeal fell on deaf ears (with some rare exceptions, as we all know). Prior to the year 1750 is different.
And I continue to be surprised at how quickly the Portuguese language was eliminated at the Seminary of Rachol, thus depriving their students from first hand knowledge of important written materials on the history of Goa. Sad.
John
Sent from my iPhone
John, the suppression of Konkani is well documented and was corroborated by various older Goan folk whom I had met and spoken to, my late grandfather and father included, but I forgot to add it had happened during modern times, in the last decades prior to
1961.
Yes, pre-1900's there was no problems about Konkani being spoken in Goa - the Jesuits were strong supporters of Konkani and other native languages - despite pushing for Latin and Portuguese too - but since they were expelled from Goa, there was no official
support to the Konkani language. It just merely existed.
Konkani did get a push in the 1840's due to the introduction of Manddes and Dulpods in Goan folk music form, where educated Portuguese and Goans would ask their servants to translate Portuguese lyrics into Konkani. Hence the language spread amongst more refined
cultural circles in Goa.
However, mid 20th century things changed. Possibly due to Salazar's policies, I wonder.
Portuguese is still spoken at Rachol seminary as well as at the Bishop's palace, but amongst older priests on conversations, I visit both places regularly. I wonder if the Rachol seminary students themselves have anything to do with this, as most new generation
post 1961 do not speak Portuguese and many students come from very poor backgrounds too, hence Portuguese would be hard for them to understand, unlike English. Perhaps English was a solution to bridge language barriers at Rachol? I doubt Government policies
had anything to do with the language switch at Rachol and Saligao seminaries.
Joao Paulo
Sorry but that is not correct. Since 1750 I do not know of any attempt by the Portuguese to suppress Konkani. Quite the opposite. They advocated the development of Konkani as the work of Cunha Rivara and Mourao Garcez Palha demonstrates. There were also Marathi
schools in Goa approved by Mourao Garcez Palha's grandfather who was Viceroy of India. There was significant opposition to Konkani from some Goans (such as Suriargi Ananta Rao, for example).
What I cannot understand is why Portuguese was banned at the Seminary of Rachol in favor of English. The Seminary of Rachol was not a government institution, so the "tit for tet" explanation does not apply to them.
John
On Thursday, January 30, 2025 at 04:22:45 PM EST, Joao Paulo Cota < [email protected]> wrote:
The French government signed the Treaty of Cession in 1956 with India, which guaranteed French to be included as part of Pondicherry's future, post 1954 referendum.
The Portuguese government was treated as a war enemy, unlike the French, hence the Indian government preferred Portuguese to go away and Goa to embrace what India had to offer - English and Hindi.
The Portuguese also did not encourage Konkani being openly spoken on the streets, as per my older family member / older friend chats. Usage of Konkani was suppressed.
Hence, it could had been a tit for tat game... to get rid of the Portuguese and traces of their language.
Why was Portuguese dropped as language of instruction? It could not be because it was a “colonial language” because English is definitely a colonial language. Historically, English was never a language spoken by Goans in Goa.
John
Sent from my iPhone
Admission to Rachol was restricted to Charda and the Brahmin groups. They were conversant with
the Portuguese language and belonged to the civil services. The new era dates to the early 70's when
the language of instruction also changed to English and Konkanni.
On Wed, Jan 29, 2025 at 6:15 AM 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net < [email protected]>
wrote:
Dear members,
I need your opinion on this. Researching one family of nineteenth century Velsao, Goa, I discovered through archival documents in Lisbon, that one brother from Velsao travelled to Zanzibar and was likely a table waiter and cook, and most likely illiterate,
but later hugely successful. Although there was some reason to treat this information taken from a 1890 source with some scepticism, it did have details for the employer etc. and in the main not really discreditable.
I have now discovered through the assistance of the brilliant geneologist Richard Souza, that another brother born in 1829 was ordained as a priest.
Was not the priesthood in Goa driven by caste and largely restricted to upper-castes?
How do I square this information?
Your help would be most appreciated.
Selma
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