Selma,Can you please share with us who interrogated his family and who signed
the statement that he was of "pure blood" etc.?John
On Friday, January 31, 2025 at 02:39:46 PM EST, 'Carvalho' via
Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> wrote:
I don't claim to have done a thesis on Goan priests, but since this is a
research forum, I'm sharing what I've come to know to be the case in the
particular person I am persuing. In 1853, having studied at the Sao Thome
Seminary in Madras, he returned to Goa to answer his Latin exam at Rachol. His
family were interrogated to confirm that he was of "clean blood" without any
Jewish, Muslim, Mulatto intermingling or any race disapproved of by law.
Separately, it was also confined that he was of "pure blood" without a doubt
about his caste.
Take care,Selma
On Friday 31 January 2025 at 15:08:17 GMT, Joao Paulo Cota
<[email protected]> wrote:
The material I refer to on various topics I deal with, is available both
online and in hard copy. A lot of my Portuguese India section library books
content are not online, in various languages.Hence I need to find out where the
information is. Will definitely let you know when I get hold of it.BTW, there
is a lot of things that happened in Goa under the PIDE operations that are not
and I doubt it will ever be on the public domain. Some of it revolves around
the Konkani language usage in Goa.Having spoken to both PIDE related and living
Goan freedom fighters as well, afraid there is a lot of oral accounts that are
not recorded into historical records and I doubt it will ever be. I am not
really interested in reviving any of it myself, but if any of the above people
do it, it would bring new information to the public domain. So far, it is
confidential.I too agree that it is sad that the information written in
Portuguese and Latin at Rachol seminary might just turn to dust someday, unless
it is digitised in time. I was supposed to had gone to check some Jesuit
records in their underground library records, but unfortunately ran out of time
due to my book publication last December. But will do so in the future.Joao
Paulo
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on
behalf of John de Figueiredo <[email protected]>
Sent: 31 January 2025 09:21
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [GRN] Priest and Cook squaring the circle in Goan society It would
be helpful for me to know if there is any written document indicating that the
Portuguese government suppressed Konkani from the year 1750 till 1961. I could
not find a single one. There was even a chair of Konkani and Marathi at the
Liceu Nacional Afonso de Albuquerque (funded by the Portuguese government).
Professor Martinho Faleiro and Professor Esvonta Sinai Talaulicar (both of whom
I knew well) taught those languages at the Liceu. I do not know if that chair
survived because of lack of attendance. Let us not blame the Portuguese
government for what appears to be neglect on the part of many Goans. Cunha
Rivara’s appeal fell on deaf ears (with some rare exceptions, as we all know).
Prior to the year 1750 is different.And I continue to be surprised at how
quickly the Portuguese language was eliminated at the Seminary of Rachol, thus
depriving their students from first hand knowledge of important written
materials on the history of Goa. Sad.JohnSent from my iPhone
On Jan 31, 2025, at 3:50 AM, Joao Paulo Cota <[email protected]> wrote:
John, the suppression of Konkani is well documented and was corroborated by
various older Goan folk whom I had met and spoken to, my late grandfather and
father included, but I forgot to add it had happened during modern times, in
the last decades prior to 1961.Yes, pre-1900's there was no problems about
Konkani being spoken in Goa - the Jesuits were strong supporters of Konkani and
other native languages - despite pushing for Latin and Portuguese too - but
since they were expelled from Goa, there was no official support to the Konkani
language. It just merely existed.Konkani did get a push in the 1840's due to
the introduction of Manddes and Dulpods in Goan folk music form, where educated
Portuguese and Goans would ask their servants to translate Portuguese lyrics
into Konkani. Hence the language spread amongst more refined cultural circles
in Goa.However, mid 20th century things changed. Possibly due to Salazar's
policies, I wonder.Portuguese is still spoken at Rachol seminary as well as at
the Bishop's palace, but amongst older priests on conversations, I visit both
places regularly. I wonder if the Rachol seminary students themselves have
anything to do with this, as most new generation post 1961 do not speak
Portuguese and many students come from very poor backgrounds too, hence
Portuguese would be hard for them to understand, unlike English. Perhaps
English was a solution to bridge language barriers at Rachol? I doubt
Government policies had anything to do with the language switch at Rachol and
Saligao seminaries.Joao Paulo
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on
behalf of JOHN DE FIGUEIREDO <[email protected]>
Sent: 30 January 2025 23:54
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [GRN] Priest and Cook squaring the circle in Goan society Sorry
but that is not correct. Since 1750 I do not know of any attempt by the
Portuguese to suppress Konkani. Quite the opposite. They advocated the
development of Konkani as the work of Cunha Rivara and Mourao Garcez Palha
demonstrates. There were also Marathi schools in Goa approved by Mourao Garcez
Palha's grandfather who was Viceroy of India. There was significant opposition
to Konkani from some Goans (such as Suriargi Ananta Rao, for example).What I
cannot understand is why Portuguese was banned at the Seminary of Rachol in
favor of English. The Seminary of Rachol was not a government institution, so
the "tit for tet" explanation does not apply to them.John On Thursday,
January 30, 2025 at 04:22:45 PM EST, Joao Paulo Cota <[email protected]>
wrote:
The French government signed the Treaty of Cession in 1956 with India, which
guaranteed French to be included as part of Pondicherry's future, post 1954
referendum.The Portuguese government was treated as a war enemy, unlike the
French, hence the Indian government preferred Portuguese to go away and Goa to
embrace what India had to offer - English and Hindi.The Portuguese also did not
encourage Konkani being openly spoken on the streets, as per my older family
member / older friend chats. Usage of Konkani was suppressed.Hence, it could
had been a tit for tat game... to get rid of the Portuguese and traces of their
language.
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on
behalf of John de Figueiredo <[email protected]>
Sent: 30 January 2025 09:45
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [GRN] Priest and Cook squaring the circle in Goan society Why was
Portuguese dropped as language of instruction? It could not be because it was a
“colonial language” because English is definitely a colonial language.
Historically, English was never a language spoken by Goans in Goa.JohnSent from
my iPhone
On Jan 29, 2025, at 1:56 PM, Eric Pinto <[email protected]> wrote:
Admission to Rachol was restricted to Charda and the Brahmin groups. They were
conversant withthe Portuguese language and belonged to the civil services. The
new era dates to the early 70's when the language of instruction also changed
to English and Konkanni.
On Wed, Jan 29, 2025 at 6:15 AM 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net
<[email protected]> wrote:
Dear members,
I need your opinion on this. Researching one family of nineteenth century
Velsao, Goa, I discovered through archival documents in Lisbon, that one
brother from Velsao travelled to Zanzibar and was likely a table waiter and
cook, and most likely illiterate, but later hugely successful. Although there
was some reason to treat this information taken from a 1890 source with some
scepticism, it did have details for the employer etc. and in the main not
really discreditable.
I have now discovered through the assistance of the brilliant geneologist
Richard Souza, that another brother born in 1829 was ordained as a priest.
Was not the priesthood in Goa driven by caste and largely restricted to
upper-castes?
How do I square this information?
Your help would be most appreciated.Selma--
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