Hi Raymond, Thousands of users is a different problem from millions of users. Please note, I'm not at all undermining your success, in any way, and I'm happy to hear you're profitable. Can you tell us about your game?
Shane On Dec 3, 6:27 pm, "Raymond C." <[email protected]> wrote: > My most active game currently serving thousands of players daily, but > it is very profitable. One good thing of AppEngine is it scale, but > still the reliability of datastore hurts a bit consistently. > > On Dec 3, 12:16 pm, Shane <[email protected]> wrote:> Hi Raymond, > > > It's interesting you're using GAE for games. The key is, what sort of > > games? Can you send a link to your games? > > > Also, the critical point is what scale are you running at? If it's > > millions of Daily Active Users, then you're in the domain that I'm > > interested in, otherwise the problem isn't as hard. I'd be keen to > > hear figures on your number of requests per second, or concurrent > > users. > > > Cheers, > > Shane > > > On Dec 3, 2:16 pm, "Raymond C." <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I have been purely using AppEngine for hosting social games for nearly > > > 2 years now and heres my thought: > > > > AppEngine is decided for read heavy websites which have been > > > emphasized by googler for long. Its not true for dynamic/social games > > > which more than 50% operations are write operations. The datastore is > > > not reliable enough so you have to assume every read and write > > > operations could fail and the *only* backup storage is memcache which > > > is *also* unreliable for storing data that "must not fail" which is > > > essential for game's data. > > > > My games currently disconnect the user whenever there is an error at > > > the backend, which accounts to ~1% of all operations from all the > > > players (think about for every 100 actions you perform, one would fail > > > and ask you to reconnect). It is sure an inconvenience for players. > > > > If you have not started on AppEngine yet, I highly recommend keep an > > > eye on it while implement it on AWS first before the AppEngine team > > > can make the datastore more reliable. > > > > On Dec 3, 10:55 am, James Broberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Couldn't agree with Adam more. Why not use both? For MetaCDN.com we use > > > > GAE > > > > as the "web role" / front end and do the heavy lifting (large file > > > > replication, video encoding, etc) on EC2 instances around the globe on > > > > an as > > > > needed basis. > > > > > On 3 December 2010 08:09, Adam Sah <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I'm a *very* longtime GAE user and former googler and I love it... but > > > > > for now, > > > > > I usually recommend it as an *ingredient* and not as the backbone > > > > > of the > > > > > whole system. > > > > > > Specifically, GAE can't support certain libraries (e.g. anything with > > > > > C/C++), > > > > > so you inevitably need another service like AWS, linode, etc. I > > > > > use Linode > > > > > to run SOLR for us and another PC instance for our offline pipeline > > > > > (maybe > > > > > move to Tasks???) > > > > > > GAE makes a nice frontend-- just be prepared for whining about short > > > > > outages, > > > > > limitations, etc. -- OTOH, I love not carrying a pager, instant > > > > > scaling, etc. > > > > > I once did 600 QPS on appengine, effortlessly. I've run $MM > > > > > businesses > > > > > on appengine, painlessly. > > > > > > One thing: if you start on GAE you can easily migrate away, but if you > > > > > start > > > > > elsewhere it's very hard to migrate to GAE. This argues for giving > > > > > it a shot, > > > > > then re-evaluating (say) monthly. > > > > > > For my latest startup, we're based entirely on GAE and it's love-hate, > > > > > but we've > > > > > stuck with it and the issues haven't been big enough to matter-- > > > > > and v1.4 > > > > > (any minute now!!!) should solve 50+% of the hassles. > > > > > > adam > > > > > > On Dec 2, 10:03 am, Grzegorz Machniewski > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Do you know how Zynga's backend is set up on AWS? I would > > > > > > > imagine it's > > > > > > > pretty complex so, you have to have the system architects and > > > > > administrators > > > > > > to manage that. > > > > > > > Zynga is using RightScale as a platform management software ( > > > > >http://www.rightscale.com/). <http://www.rightscale.com/%29.>.. it > > > > > automates management and scaling of the > > > > > > application. It's quite impressive solution, > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > G. > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Eli Jones <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Maybe one of the Google developers will see this and can provide > > > > > > > you > > > > > with > > > > > > > an informed answer.. but, if it slips through the cracks, you > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > definitely ask during the IRC office hours (or just check > > > > > > > #appengine on > > > > > > > irc.freenode.net, since someone from Google may be there at any > > > > > > > time.) > > > > > > > > If your app becomes popular on a Farmville scale, you'd have to be > > > > > prepared > > > > > > > to automatically start-up new instances and balance load across > > > > > > > them. > > > > > Which > > > > > > > means you'd need to spend time and energy designing this sort of > > > > > > > system > > > > > up > > > > > > > front. > > > > > > > > Though, if you just plan on cranking up an Extra Large EC2 > > > > > > > Instance and > > > > > > > running off of that (and maybe using SimpleDB on the back end).. > > > > > > > and > > > > > dealing > > > > > > > with front end scaling issues later. You would probably be > > > > > > > fine.. most > > > > > apps > > > > > > > do not become popular on the Farmville scale. SimpleDB will > > > > > > > enforce a > > > > > > > little database discipline, and, if you do "blow up", you could > > > > > probably > > > > > > > figure out how to load balance over multiple static instances > > > > > > > until you > > > > > > > cooked up some sort of automated scaling method. (Again, this > > > > > > > depends > > > > > on > > > > > > > you using SimpleDB on the back-end.) > > > > > > > > With Appengine, you avoid any sort of systems architecting (just > > > > > > > code > > > > > as > > > > > > > fast as possible).. but you have to spend time coding ways to > > > > > > > deal with > > > > > the > > > > > > > 99th percentile outlier Datastore issues. > > > > > > > > Maybe there are some people here who have user facing apps who can > > > > > speak > > > > > > > about this from experience (I happily do backend processing where > > > > > retrying a > > > > > > > failed datastore operation or a failed cold start is no problem.. > > > > > > > and > > > > > there > > > > > > > is no user on the other side to become frustrated.) > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Shane <[email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> I know this has been asked one way or another before, but most > > > > > > >> of the > > > > > > >> main issues to do with GAE stability seem to have been asked > > > > > > >> around > > > > > > >> the end of 2008, early 2009. > > > > > > > >> Basically, I have been arguing back and forth with my business > > > > > > >> partner > > > > > > >> about whether to use GAE or AWS for the back-end of our social > > > > > > >> game > > > > > > >> engine. I love GAE (Java) for so many reasons, and although it > > > > > > >> used > > > > > > >> to be unstable, it's pretty good now. The main argument in > > > > > > >> favour of > > > > > > >> AWS is the fact that AWS has proven itself with multiple games > > > > > > >> running > > > > > > >> tens of millions of active users per day. The obvious pin-up > > > > > > >> child > > > > > > >> for AWS is Zynga, with its Farmville peaking at 80+million DAU. > > > > > > >> And > > > > > > >> that's just one of the hugely successful games running on the AWS > > > > > > >> infrastructure. Remarkable achievement. > > > > > > > >> So, one way or another it's KNOWN to work. GAE on the other hand > > > > > > >> doesn't have any examples that I could find doing these sorts of > > > > > > >> numbers. Not even close. So can I trust it? Is there a single > > > > > > >> example of a large social game with millions of Daily Active > > > > > > >> Users, > > > > > > >> using GAE? > > > > > > > >> I look forward to your thoughts, but please also note, this is > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > >> intended to start any sort of flame war. I love both systems, > > > > > > >> but > > > > > > >> both have their positives and negatives, but I'm about to make an > > > > > > >> architectural decision that likely won't be undone moving > > > > > > >> forward. > > > > > > > >> Regards, > > > > > > >> Shane > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > > > > > >> Google > > > > > Groups > > > > > > >> "Google App Engine" group. > > > > > > >> To post to this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]. > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > > >> [email protected]<google-appengine%2Bunsubscrib > > > > > > >> [email protected]><google-appengine%2Bunsubscrib > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > >> . > > > > > > >> For more options, visit this group at > > > > > > >>http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups > > > > > > > "Google App Engine" group. > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > . > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > > > [email protected]<google-appengine%2Bunsubscrib > > > > > > > [email protected]><google-appengine%2Bunsubscrib > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en. > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Grzegorz Machniewski > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups > > > > > "Google App Engine" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]<google-appengine%2Bunsubscrib > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > . > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en.
