Pada Selasa, 24 Februari 2015 06.00.32 UTC+8, digitalfredy menulis: > My point of view is easy to understand whit this example, If Remo is > community-driven because we can chose council members and we have > spaces like Remo Camps, then our countries are citizen-driven because > we can chose politicians and we have participative tools. so this > world is perfect related with politics/decision making. > > In other words, representative structures can't guarantee a true > representation, their decision making is not a mirror from the base, > and we will not resolve it in a mailing list discussion, until now we > are using this structure because we don't now how to made works > something more horizontal and distributed. > > If you have a problem with the 7+2 power concentration you can propose > another structure but I think it is realistic because in a more > distributed structure the problem is that no much people have time or > interest in to exercise their power. is also more complex and require > more effort. > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Guillermo Movia > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Fredy (comments inline) > > > > El 21/02/15 a las 17:32, digitalfredy escibió: > >> Hello, > >> > >> I think we have the same problem that in countries democracy, we know > >> that something is bad but most people is not working on a fix, a few > >> will raise their voices to exprime their inconformity and blame about > >> others without pointing a "right" path. > >> > >> As in countries democracies most people aren't interesting in the > >> decision making architecture, we want just to be customers using a > >> program "well designed" by others and when we try to participate we > >> don't found tools to do it and/or we have language barriers because > >> english is not our first language. I think we can learn from Open > >> Source Software using repositories to manage our program architecture > >> definition, SOPs ... but honestly I think no much people will use this > >> tools. > >> > >> Just now we have a restricted wiki but we can't fork it to experiment > >> and propose changes, this is a very vertical project but is working in > >> the fact that we are getting resources for events. > >> > >> I think must uf us, we are expecting (dreaming) things like > >> distributed decision making, consensus ... because that match with out > >> values but in the other hand people payed by Mozilla are > >> results-oriented. In practice we can't be more that endusers for this > >> program using it AS-IS because we don't have resources (money/time) to > >> rebuild the program architecture to match with our values and we don't > >> know if doing it the program will really works. > >> > >> If resources allocation is working why not simply remove the > >> "community-driven" propaganda and find a better why to talk about the > >> 7+2 power concentration > >> (https://wiki.mozilla.org/ReMo/Structure_Governance)? > >> > > > > Probably this program doesn't match your "community-driven" criteria, > > but call it propaganda seems too much. Since the beginning, like Majken > > wrote in other email, members of the community work in the design of the > > project, and since then, lots of community members were mentors and part > > of the council, taking decisions and moving the project forward. > > > > In my point of view, that is community driven. Yes, we don't work in > > consensus with all the reps. Maybe in the future, but taking all > > decisions by consensus seems quite difficult. > > > > And like many others says, lot of the changes in the program were taken > > in Remo Camps (were not only council members go) and by open and public > > changes proposals in the mailing list. So your 7+2 power concentration > > is not quite right. > > > > Dependency on the language is a problem, but that's is a global problem, > > not only a Mozilla one. > > > >> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Sofien Chaabouni > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> This is not mainly people like WilliamQ, Pierros, Brian or Ruben who were > >>> the cause of what is happening now! but can be the choice of goals (one > >>> million, and firefoxOS webmaker) that have imposed changes and swapping > >>> positions! > >>> > >>> The Reps program was exactly what Mozilla is looking for to give > >>> volunteers > >>> a status also to organize financially their activities. Although the > >>> success pushed William and Pierros to review the program and try to adapt > >>> it to the coming ... ( The huge number of Reps, the appearing of Firefox > >>> OS > >>> and Webmaker ) > >>> > >>> In the meantime, Mozilla launched the "OneMillion" goal that was (for me) > >>> not > >>> really the best time to do it. for several reasons ( The lack of tools and > >>> programs to achieve this goal ). This same goal caused that WilliamQ and > >>> Pierros will not continue their adventure to "fix" the Reps Program then > >>> they joined the CBT (that vanished recently for reasons I ignore). With > >>> all > >>> the work they had, it was hard to find time to mentor the new leaders of > >>> the Reps program which caused the malfunction of today and it's not Brian > >>> nor the council's fault. > >>> > >>> I am aware that the program is not fully transparent but there has to be > >>> some ideas and suggestions to help (and I am certain that no one can tell > >>> you not to) > >>> > >>> 2015-02-19 19:49 GMT+01:00 Dicky Moe <[email protected]>: > >>> > >>>> Hello everyone this is Dicky Moe, again. We are sad to join again and > >>>> write up. We just want to make some points clear before you dig yourself > >>>> in. > >>>> > >>>> We went anonymous not because we are afraid. There is no reason for us to > >>>> be! > >>>> > >>>> # Mozilla its paying for our daily bread, but it does provide us > >>>> community spirit which is vital for Mozillians because once mozillian you > >>>> are mozillian forever, we don't want a bunch of dictators ruin what we've > >>>> all stood up for. > >>>> > >>>> # If you still want us to reveal our names that would be the last thing > >>>> the community want to get. (Black spread faster and easily, but hard to > >>>> wash ) > >>>> > >>>> # Most people have got themselves in trouble raising the community > >>>> issues and finally end up leaving the community. We are not ready for > >>>> that! > >>>> At Least not before completing the projects we took up. > >>>> > >>>> We have seen volunteers & Staffs leaving Mozilla and joining > >>>> organizations > >>>> that totally opposes the Mozilla mission, Internal issues are the main > >>>> cause whatever they post on blogs or statements is just for personal > >>>> satisfaction because Mozilla has been diffused in the blood. Let's hope > >>>> it > >>>> doesn't happen to most of us. Please spend less time scrutinizing the > >>>> literature and immature use of caps or grammar and choice of file sharing > >>>> program :) Instead, please read and reflect on the issues being raised. > >>>> > >>>> We don't feel overwhelmed by all the responses against our mail. It's > >>>> easier to speak in support. And since our previous mail sounded a little > >>>> immature with all the caps, special effects and background score. People > >>>> are probably thinking that they are all just lies and uncalled for. > >>>> > >>>> But keep in mind that for every person who expressed an opinion against > >>>> our action, there are many who shared our view and let us know their > >>>> support through PM, but are just afraid to speak out publicly. One of the > >>>> most abused sentences in the Mozilla community is "this is an open > >>>> community". Well, we hate to break it to you: it is not! > >>>> > >>>> Lets began...... ( TO LONG PLEASE TAKE YOUR TIME TO READ ) > >>>> > >>>> [1]MozFest > >>>> ----------------- > >>>> Did the council lose all their fingers or keys on the keyboard, > >>>> we/community had not received any reply for the concerns raised...? "The > >>>> Selection process". > >>>> > >>>> We are shocked to see the council not keeping its own words, waiting for > >>>> the 2-3 Sentence explanation for the persons selected. Can we expect the > >>>> answer before Mozfest 2015.? > >>>> > >>>> We never thought we needed to look here, but, we were forced to, after > >>>> the > >>>> so called 'qualified reps' according to the Reps Council who attended the > >>>> Mozfest weren't doing what they were intended to do after all, the > >>>> following links proves it > >>>> http://priyankaivy.blogspot.in/2014/10/my-last-two-cents-to-mozilla-india.html > >>>> . > >>>> > >>>> If so happened then why were those reps invited....? > >>>> (Thanks Priyanka for sharing, hope you won't remove it. In case if the > >>>> above link is not available by the time you read it, here is a screenshot > >>>> of it https://www.sendspace.com/file/sdslcw ) > >>>> > >>>> Congrats you just made the majority of hardworking Mozillians made look > >>>> fool because those selected were enjoying London it seems. Do you still > >>>> have anything to say about this? > >>>> > >>>> [2]Reps Council > >>>> ---------------------- > >>>> > >>>> As always Reps program has managed to stay as the headquarters of > >>>> problems > >>>> or the tensions. We are very sad to see the heading of the Reps program. > >>>> > >>>> The work of WilliamQ & Pierros to help community reach Mozilla faster was > >>>> superb, but we have to say, my friends, you have failed to manage it or > >>>> take it forward. We have no objections to your actions and idea of Reps > >>>> but > >>>> you are still responsible for transferring unaccountable control to > >>>> people > >>>> who weren't up for the task - manage and guide the community. > >>>> > >>>> Community management is a very tough task, In an organization like > >>>> Mozilla > >>>> It's the only task that has to be dealt seriously after the Main > >>>> Products. > >>>> We are sad for having to mention names and go personal here. > >>>> > >>>> We don't know what you guys do during the in-person meetings every time > >>>> in > >>>> luxurious locations. There has never been any visible improvements in > >>>> Reps > >>>> program in recent times. All we had is cursing from all directions and > >>>> volunteers leaving the program. The commitment of Reps program can be > >>>> measured just by looking at the number of people voting to select the > >>>> council member. People have just lost faith with more and more > >>>> dictatorial > >>>> dominating the Reps program. The Reps program has given unlimited powers > >>>> in > >>>> many decision making processes which make many mozillians hard to work > >>>> with > >>>> all those diplomacy. > >>>> > >>>> Brian King, Ruben (we have a special section for you), Vineel, Gautham > >>>> Raj, Robert Bob Ryes, Mahay Alay Khan(MAK) you guys are the worst > >>>> community persons anyone could have met. You have managed to ruin the > >>>> community by breaking the openness. If you try to get yourself away > >>>> stating that you're gonna improve from your current standing, it has no > >>>> meaning here. If/when replying, please keep bombast and rhetoric to their > >>>> minimum - in simple words, avoid BS; give facts. > >>>> > >>>> Brian King - The guy before Ruben, who have sat managing Mozilla Reps and > >>>> started the process of running the community. This guy simply haven't > >>>> done > >>>> any sort of help when asked. Instead, he has sided with many community > >>>> members who claim themselves as "liaisons" or community leads(we wonder > >>>> what these guys have done other than having trips and getting the credits > >>>> of work done by others) especially in the Asian region and back stabbed > >>>> many other hardworking mozillians. > >>>> > >>>> Ruben - Scroll down bud, we haven't reached yours yet. > >>>> > >>>> Robert Bob - You have been one hell of a pain for a lot of mozillians in > >>>> the community. First of all, you have to understand Mozilla is not > >>>> solely > >>>> yours and mind your language when talking to community members. You have > >>>> given very little respect and have taken direct word attacks in many > >>>> mails > >>>> which has caused some uneasiness for many people. > >>>> > >>>> Vineel - We have heard from many community members how you played > >>>> silently in the back and take credit for stuffs that you haven't even > >>>> heard > >>>> of. You soap or sugar coats the Mozilla staffs a lot that no one dares > >>>> say > >>>> anything even the community members. You have your group who gets to > >>>> represents mozilla for everything that involves luxury and make community > >>>> members look like fools. Don't play nice because the truth can't be > >>>> hidden > >>>> for long. We guess there are more members who have left the community > >>>> because of your unflavored policies. You have been sticking and > >>>> proclaiming > >>>> as the head of the regional community for long (Does any one know who > >>>> made > >>>> him the lead, by the way). We have seen some great minds leaving from > >>>> your > >>>> community, which you also seem to have left and yet your name still shows > >>>> up on every event Mozilla budgets, is it only us who see this...? > >>>> > >>>> And in general, we must have elections, choosing the head of the > >>>> community > >>>> and one can't simply sit forever and dictate with his buddies. This > >>>> happens > >>>> in many communities, Vineel's dictator managed the first position in the > >>>> list making a perfect example for this email. MAK standing second, we're > >>>> observing you too on this one. You have caused political divisions in > >>>> Bangladesh community. The domain issue and more... Ruben and more we are > >>>> watching all > >>>> > >>>> Gauthamraj - This guy is a Webmaker contractor now? We just don't know > >>>> how > >>>> these people are qualified to do such works for Mozilla. These are not > >>>> posted anywhere. Was there any open call for this or anything on the > >>>> Careers page? Isn't that how "Open" works? Concerned authorities please > >>>> explain > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [3]Mentor selection > >>>> ---------------------------- > >>>> > >>>> As far we see each Rep has a mentor, but what we have no idea is who they > >>>> are and how they came to be one..? No official invitation or nomination > >>>> news in any of the lists. > >>>> > >>>> It seems like the one who is connected with a council get a position in > >>>> council- Political bribery? > >>>> > >>>> [4]Community IT > >>>> ----------------------- > >>>> > >>>> Who the hell do you think you are Ruben..?. > >>>> > >>>> We know you have been with mozilla and community since 6+ years, all the > >>>> mozillians including you, have been breathing same mission so far, but > >>>> please bear in mind that Mozilla is not your Family Asset...? You might > >>>> have > >>>> the veteran's syndrome ( > >>>> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Veteran%27s+Syndrome), you > >>>> should check that out. > >>>> > >>>> Congratulation for joining Reps Council, but don't think you can > >>>> establish > >>>> a dictatorship over a community that supports openness. As council we > >>>> value > >>>> your action only in areas or the fields assigned to you, but that doesn't > >>>> mean you have the ultimate decision on any things other than the ones > >>>> stated to you. > >>>> > >>>> Your reactions to these areas have-not been fruitful to community with > >>>> communication, your replies in bug 1121901 ( > >>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1121901) especially the > >>>> reply in comment#11 has been very arrogant - the kind that people who > >>>> manage communities shouldn't display. Not to mention the reaction at > >>>> https://discourse.mozilla-community.org/t/community-hosting-require-domain-ownership-transfering-to-mozilla/1448/2 > >>>> > >>>> Learn to respect other mozillians! Or better yet, other humans in > >>>> general. > >>>> Your works so far to Mozilla has been great, but you are doing more > >>>> damage > >>>> than good now and you are trying your best to achieve a bad name to your > >>>> profile and you are being successful in that. > >>>> > >>>> [5]Reps application endorsement > >>>> ----------------------------------------------- > >>>> > >>>> Mr. Ruben, according to your comment, an applicant need to get endorsed > >>>> on > >>>> his Reps application form, from those who vouched the applicant's > >>>> mozillians profile. When did this new approach make? > >>>> Who made this decision? Did Mentors approve this? Did you inform to the > >>>> broader reps community about this stupid change? > >>>> What if the applicant gets vouches from a non-rep mozillian? How he can > >>>> endorse his vouchee's application then? What if the voucher is no more > >>>> available. The unlucky applicant can't be a rep? > >>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1129695#c1 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> What we demand/request: > >>>> # End the dictatorial working of Reps council and mentors. A clear > >>>> selection process for mentor selection and contesting in council has to > >>>> be > >>>> implemented. > >>>> > >>>> # An open way to kick a council /mentor/rep if he/she is unfit. Open > >>>> votes have to be taken against the council and mentors to reason if they > >>>> are working the way they should be. And this vote has to be public and > >>>> not > >>>> in some hidden locker at the councils side desk. > >>>> > >>>> # Mozilla is not just a Reps program and those who proclaim themselves > >>>> as > >>>> the head has to understand that other mozillians also help in shaping the > >>>> Open Web. Try to respect everyone. > >>>> > >>>> # Transparency in selection process. We have sent a doc in the last > >>>> email > >>>> of how immature and biased the selection were for a regional level event. > >>>> Shame on you people. > >>>> > >>>> # While having done the criticism, we also would like to thank Benjamin > >>>> Kerensa, Emma Irwin and Majken Connor for all the efforts they take in > >>>> making things more transparent. We just need people like you at the > >>>> important positions so that some inexperienced and closed minded people > >>>> don't end there, for example Ruben. We expect bold people like you to > >>>> come > >>>> forward. > >>>> > >>>> # Allow participation of all the volunteers in the decision making > >>>> process, irrespective of position - at least in the major decision making > >>>> process and in all cases. > >>>> > >>>> We are not here to make the organization look bad. We trust this > >>>> organization's mission to the core and we are dreaming for a safe and > >>>> open > >>>> web. But we can't achieve any, if the status continues. Lets > >>>> constructively > >>>> discuss the above problems and not our literature or who we are. > >>>> > >>>> Many people have reached us (PM) claiming problems so if anyone feels > >>>> anything need to be addressed in open feel free to mail us. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Regards > >>>> Fellow Mozillians > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> mozillians mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/mozillians > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> *Chaabouni Sofien * > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> reps-general mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/reps-general > >>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/ReMo/SOPs/Mailing_List_Policy > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Guillermo Movia > > > > -- > ATT: Fredy Pulido López, +1 procurando un mejor mundo para todos.
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