dear ahmed, thanks for your reply.. yep. you have a point there.. branding probably happens only if that section has certain properties.. branding definitely happens if the section is a community, branding doesnt happen if the section is too large and probably covers a majority of people (such as heterosexual men)..
and i agree that we have to work towards modifying the existing system if that is not good.. but then the essence is in finding a better method for the police to work.. *i think we are hitting at the precise problem of how to reduce false positives (innocent people being branded as suspicious).. * deepak > > On 7/31/07, ahmed rafeek j <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Dear Deepak, > > Honestly it was a mistake in typing, I meant the opposite. I would be > > the last one who would discalim your argument on the basis of identity. And > > I try my best not to do branding. Please understand it. > > > > I have heard and seen and explored in to stereotypes as I could with my > > limited resources. What I am trying to say is that things doesnt happen in a > > vacuum. Our questioning, debating also make changes. For example some 10 > > years back, if I am right, one couldnt talk openly about one's sexuality in > > Kerala. Today also it is not very welcoming, but atleast in politically > > correct forums and spaces, it is not seen as a deviation. And many people > > are coming out today. If noone questioned the stereotypes or fought against > > it, today would also have been same. But now people are speaking. I rememebr > > some one saying this 'it was considered that we opened our mouth only to > > suck dicks, but today we started to attack the very system with our shouts > > and screams, we are no more silent'. > > > > if some people from a specific section/class of society has been causing > > problems, it is unfortunate but true, that people belonging to that > > class/section are dealt with more suspicion > > > > I donot know what base this argument has. For example, all atrocities on > > Dalits have been perpetuated by uppercastes, but why the entire uppercastes > > are traced by police. All the rape cases are done by heterosexual men, why > > all men are not picked as potential rapists? > > Only some section of people get branded as criminals by the society. > > > > On 7/31/07, deepak p < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > ahmed, i was juz citing a hypothetical example.. please do not take it > > > as an anti-muslim (i think i even gave a disclaimer saying that muslim can > > > be substituted with any community/creed/race etc).. i am not anti-muslim, > > > and i am not anti-X where X is any religion.. perhaps, i dont have any > > > authority to speak abt muslims, as i do know know any muslims (or any > > > religion for that matter) very well.. it is unfortunate that u interpreted > > > my argument as anti-muslim.. i was trying to say that police work using > > > evidence accumulation and recent history.. if some people from a > > > specific section/class of society has been causing problems, it is > > > unfortunate but true, that people belonging to that class/section are > > > dealt > > > with more suspicion... the entire section ends up bearing the burden of > > > activities of certain people with oibscure/vested interests, just because > > > they belong to the same class/section.. perhaps, we have to dig deeper to > > > find how such unfortunate incidents can be avoided.. > > > > > > On 7/31/07, ahmed rafeek j < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Deepak, > > > > I do negate your arguments on the basis of your locusstandi to speak > > > > on muslims. You descript things well, and many of the points are good > > > > observations, but as I understand it, there are no value free > > > > observations > > > > of the society. You are representing a particular 'truth' about Muslims, > > > > which is propagated by the media as well. Have you seen any Gujarathi > > > > Hindu > > > > men labelled as terrorist? Has Sanjay Dutt who has been convicted today, > > > > ever been called as a terrorist? The trap in your argument, and the > > > > point I > > > > am making is that they have not been labelled as terrorists, because > > > > they > > > > are not muslims. So this particular production of terrorist muslim is > > > > not > > > > innocent though it appear like that. You should read how the attribute > > > > of > > > > homosexuality has been applied on Calicut and the muslim ( There is an > > > > interesting article on this by S. Sanjeev, appeared in a book by DC > > > > Books, > > > > called Swavarga Lainhgikatha Keralathil). But even the official > > > > statistics > > > > on Men who have Sex with Men, has said that Kottaym was the most > > > > happening > > > > area. This branding goes only to certain identities. 'Theft' was > > > > attributed > > > > to dalits at a time. So there need not be truth in the claims. And who > > > > created these truths for whom? One should look at it. > > > > Rafeek > > > > / > > > > > > > > On 7/31/07, deepak p < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > > > > > > > yep. esp. the second point.. i wanted to raise it in this forum, > > > > > but i was skeptical if people would start taking it as if i am > > > > > anti-muslim.. > > > > > police works by using patterns.. if most crimes are being committed by > > > > > people from a single community, the police is very much justified in > > > > > lookin > > > > > at suspicious people from that community more seriously (and more > > > > > suspiciously) that people from another community.. this is not just a > > > > > community based things.. if people coming from a state X have been > > > > > causing > > > > > more problems in the form of say, terrorist attacks, then, people > > > > > from that > > > > > state are liable to be looked upon more suspiciously than people from > > > > > other > > > > > places.. > > > > > > > > > > police should work (or works) by means of evidence accumulation > > > > > and by learning from past histories.. so, as many attacks have been > > > > > engineered by muslims of late, the police attach a slightly higher > > > > > suspicion > > > > > score to a suspicious person who belongs to that community as > > > > > compared to a > > > > > person who belongs to the hindu community.. how else can the police > > > > > work.. > > > > > if they dont explore suspicious activity, would people here support > > > > > them > > > > > after something bad happens (by trying to justify their action of not > > > > > exploring the suspicion before the happenin) > > > > > > > > > > for the policeman, he should not be concerned abt what the > > > > > intelligentia think, but rather should try to maintain law and order > > > > > in the > > > > > locality where he works.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/31/07, Murali K Warier < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Let me try to summarize the points discussed in this thread (as > > > > > > per my understanding) and give my response to each: > > > > > > The questions to be considered: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Are the people and police justified in becoming suspicious of > > > > > > a stranger (that too from another state) settling in a rural > > > > > > surrounding, > > > > > > and getting visitors from abroad? Is it a natural response or an > > > > > > indication > > > > > > of a deeper (cultural?) malaise? > > > > > > 2) Does the 'Muslim' identity of the gentlemen play any part in > > > > > > fuelling suspicion or rumour? > > > > > > 3) Is the police's response justified - in other words, was it > > > > > > an over reaction, was it prompted by anti-Muslim bias and whether > > > > > > the > > > > > > gentleman's constitutional rights were violated? > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my responses: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) I think people are justified in becoming suspicious. Mainly > > > > > > because people are by and large suspicious of strangers. There is > > > > > > nothing > > > > > > wrong in that - of course, those at the receiving end may feel quite > > > > > > differently. I personally do not enjoy being looked upon with > > > > > > suspicion, > > > > > > because I know that I am, well, a law abiding citizen who can't > > > > > > think of > > > > > > harming a fly :) But how do strangers know about my noble, Gandhi > > > > > > like > > > > > > character? At any rate, I will not act much differently in similar > > > > > > situations - if anything, I would be even more paranoid. So is it a > > > > > > natural > > > > > > reaction? Absolutely. Does it 'look nice'? No, unambiguously. > > > > > > Should we do > > > > > > anything about it? Not on my corpse - the consequences of > > > > > > criminalizing > > > > > > thought are too frightening even to think of (didn't Communism > > > > > > teach us > > > > > > anything?) > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) It surely did. Is it good? Not really. Is it 'labeling' a > > > > > > whole community? Not at all - in any village, you will see people > > > > > > not only > > > > > > not suspicious of Muslims, but living in perfect harmony with them. > > > > > > The fact > > > > > > is that, some Muslims, misguided and brainwashed no doubt, do > > > > > > indulge in > > > > > > acts of terrorism, and some Muslims justify those acts based on > > > > > > Islamic > > > > > > scriptures and aggressively use the Muslim identity to swell the > > > > > > ranks of > > > > > > the terrorist outfits. The difficulty is that there are no other > > > > > > reliable > > > > > > means to identify these bad apples - they come in all shapes: from > > > > > > billionaire scions to doctors to financial analysts. The only > > > > > > identity > > > > > > perhaps is that most of them are well educated and come from middle > > > > > > to upper > > > > > > middle class background. The so called 'Islamophobia' is in a large > > > > > > measure > > > > > > due to this. Is this prejudice? I am not sure - it looks more like > > > > > > 'post-judice' to me. Now the question: do Tamil Brahmins settling > > > > > > in similar > > > > > > surroundings invite suspicion to a similar degree - not at the > > > > > > moment, but > > > > > > surely they will, if Tamil Brahmins start blowing up commuter > > > > > > trains, > > > > > > justify those acts on some Brahministic scriptures and recruit > > > > > > Brahmin youth > > > > > > using the Tamil Brahmin identity. By the way, Tamilians acting like > > > > > > the > > > > > > gentleman in question in early 90's would have invited much more > > > > > > suspicion > > > > > > then. Do you remember a time when Sikhs were looked upon with > > > > > > suspicion? > > > > > > These are certainly not good things, but part of the natural scheme > > > > > > of > > > > > > things. Again, the only way to suppress people's suspicious minds > > > > > > is to > > > > > > institute thought policing. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) I think this is the crux of the problem. Getting suspicious > > > > > > of somebody doesn't mean barging into their dwellings at the dead > > > > > > of the > > > > > > night. Feeling hatred for your neighbor doesn't mean you kidnap his > > > > > > son. But > > > > > > the police's behavior is symptomatic of a larger problem with law > > > > > > enforcement. If you become a suspect in some crime, the police's > > > > > > behavior to > > > > > > you would be very similar - that is, this problem - that of crude > > > > > > and > > > > > > illegal methods of investigation - is not limited to inquiries about > > > > > > possible terrorist activities. There is a lot to write about police > > > > > > reforms. > > > > > > There are any number of non-intrusive methods of investigation that > > > > > > could > > > > > > have been employed. That they didn't do so, is not indicative of > > > > > > any bias, > > > > > > but of incompetence, hegemony of authority and all that is wrong > > > > > > with our > > > > > > colonial style of policing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Murali. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/31/07, Ranjit Ranjit <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic. > > > > > > - Joseph Stalin > > > > > > > > > > > > To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. > > > > > > These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a > > > > > > revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing > > > > > > machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy > > > > > > of the paredon (The Wall)! > > > > > > - Che Guevara > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deepak P > > > > > > http://deepakp7.googlepages.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Deepak P > http://deepakp7.googlepages.com/ > -- Deepak P http://deepakp7.googlepages.com/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ greenyouth mailinglist is the activist support mailinglist for kerala To post to this group, send email to [email protected] -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
